Should England in 1066 be Orthodox?

[DukeRothis]

Well according to several sources there were many different religious tensions between the Papacy and England due to the adoption of pagan gods and goddesses as saints, and it was because of this along with the validity of William's claim that the Pope allowed Duke William II of Normandy to invade England. Should England then in 1066 be Orthodox or a new Christian denomination? Or maybe some kind of event if Harald Hådråde and William are defeated that makes a new church with the pagan saints like Christianity in England before 1066, except independent? Wikipedia also speaks about Harold Godwinson possibly being Orthodox. It states: As such, it is probably safe to say that, prior to 1066, the church of the British Isles was Orthodox, and the Normans brought the effects of the Great Schism to British soil. As such, it is probably proper to regard King Harold II as an Orthodox Christian.

 

[kmh42]

Well according to several sources there were many different religious tensions between the Papacy and England due to the adoption of pagan gods and goddesses as saints, and it was because of this along with the validity of William's claim that the Pope allowed Duke William II of Normandy to invade England. Should England then in 1066 be Orthodox or a new Christian denomination? Or maybe some kind of event if Harald Hådråde and William are defeated that makes a new church with the pagan saints like Christianity in England before 1066, except independent? Wikipedia also speaks about Harold Godwinson possibly being Orthodox. It states: As such, it is probably safe to say that, prior to 1066, the church of the British Isles was Orthodox, and the Normans brought the effects of the Great Schism to British soil. As such, it is probably proper to regard King Harold II as an Orthodox Christian.

wikipedia

... the Eastern and Western groups drifted until the point where patriarchs from both families excommunicated one another in about 1054 in what is known as the Great Schism. ...

So the Schism wasn't a full fleshed thing at 1066. It took decades to distinguish East (Orthodox) and West (Catholic). This is not present in the game sadly.

 

[Thure]

Why should this make England Orthodox? England still accepted the pope as head of religion. They had nothing in common with Orthodoxy. And a own religion wouldn't make much sense since they accepted the Pope as head... they were also not viewed as heretic.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Well according to several sources there were many different religious tensions between the Papacy and England due to the adoption of pagan gods and goddesses as saints, and it was because of this along with the validity of William's claim that the Pope allowed Duke William II of Normandy to invade England. Should England then in 1066 be Orthodox or a new Christian denomination? Or maybe some kind of event if Harald Hådråde and William are defeated that makes a new church with the pagan saints like Christianity in England before 1066, except independent? Wikipedia also speaks about Harold Godwinson possibly being Orthodox. It states: As such, it is probably safe to say that, prior to 1066, the church of the British Isles was Orthodox, and the Normans brought the effects of the Great Schism to British soil. As such, it is probably proper to regard King Harold II as an Orthodox Christian.

I think you may be confusing two things.

1. Irish/British Christianity which became distanced from Rome after the fall of the Western Empire and only gradually reintegrated, they incorporated pre-Christian heros and Gods/demi-Gods as saints.

2. The English Church which, although in full Communion with Rome had, due to the upset of the Viking Invasions and distance from Italy developed a number of idiosyncracies. For example, English priests and even bishops were generally married and Churches often passed from father to son. The practice was so widespread that when Archboishop Lanfranc (an Italian) took over after the Conquest he was forced to confirm the validity of existing priestly marriages, lest he create thousands of bastards of their children.

 

[Nyrael]

Orthodox Christianity was its own organized denomination, not an umbrella term for various denominations like Protestantism is. Just opposing the Pope won't make you Orthodox (heck, the Orthodox Church would probably label you as a heretic for it).

Its own denomination also doesn't make sense: not only was the Church in England generally very loyal to the Catholic Church, majority of European Christians were actually following a mix of Paganism and Christianity (you don't just erase a religion over night after all) so there really wasn't anything special with English. Heck, turning Pagan gods to Catholic Saints was one of weapons that the Catholic Church used to convert the populace around Europe.
Harold having qualms with the Pope is also nothing special. If he should get anything from it, it would be a Cynical trait.

 

[Rubidium]

While there were tensions and differences between English and European churches, they were hardly unique in that respect. As noted, the English had tons of unique saints (not so much Christianized pagans, but more along the lines of "random younger son/daughter of ruler founded a monastery/nunnery==>make them a saint"), but while the Normans sort of looked down on them for it post-Conquest, it was hardly a major issue. There were other idiosyncrasies as well, but again, that's hardly reason to make them Orthodox (a tradition with its own differences, few of which were shared). Indeed, the Pope's concerns about English churches were far less than those about the HRE (note that the HRE had supported its own antipope as recently as 1064, and would support another one in 1080), while the sitting king of France in 1066 would be excommunicated for bigamy in 1095, but neither is considered Orthodox either historically or ingame.

The English would have considered themselves followers of the Western Church and the Pope, and everyone else would have as well.

 

[Testy]

Wikipedia doesn't say that Harold was probably Orthodox. That quote comes from a site called 'orthodoxwiki.org'.

 

[Closet Skeleton]

All varieties of Christianity had pre-Christian pagan influences on Saints. The first official canonisation was in 993, the right to canonise wasn't reserved by the pope until the 12th century.

So England wouldn't have had any problems regarding saints in 1066 because there weren't any rules.

 

[King Anund]

Even if you think in CK2 rules Harold Godwinson has to be catholic because if he is not the Pope could not grant the Invasion CB to William of Normandy

 

[Gnorrosch]

As such, it is probably safe to say that, prior to 1066, the church of the British Isles was Orthodox, and the Normans brought the effects of the Great Schism to British soil. As such, it is probably proper to regard King Harold II as an Orthodox Christian.

That makes no sense at all. Even though the British isles had their distinct interpretation (Insular Christianity), they were definitely part of the (Roman-Catholic) Latin Rite, and not of the (Orthodox) Greek Rite.

 

[Iron Chariots]

No.

 

[Kapitalisti]

No, regardless of their special flavors etc. they were still in game terms Catholics.

 

[DPS]

A much better question would be if in the 769 start all Christians should be Orthodox. I'd say no, but you could make a case otherwise, I think.

 

[Rubidium]

A much better question would be if in the 769 start all Christians should be Orthodox. I'd say no, but you could make a case otherwise, I think.

Or all Catholic

 

[SigurdStormhand]

OK, so I read that Orthodox wiki.

I get the idea - Catholacism is a heresy that tries to place the Pope above all other Bishops as an equal, or even a superior, to the Emperor. Haold resisted Roman Reform (allegedly) and therefore is Orthodox, because all true Christians are Orthodox and not Catholic.

The problem is that Harold resisted Papal influence no more or no less than any other English King, indeed the Pope only ever appointed ONE English Bishop, John Grandisson. Aside from that the Kings of England claimed Imperium Maius as did the Emperor, and they were able to maintain that until the Reformation and the Break with Rome.

One of the major reasons given for the Invasion in 1066 was the "uncanonical" nature of the English Church, and especially Archbishop Stigand of Canterbury. Stigand was eventually deposed by Papal Legates in 1070 along with all but two of the English-educated bishops, but in 1062 the same Legates sat in Council with Stigand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigand

Given that this was after the Great Schism it can only be concluded that Stigand was, in 1062 at least, in Communion with Rome, and the Arch Bishop of York was never out of Communion with Rome. Ergo, the English Church was in Communion with Rome, not Constantinople. Ergo, the Church was Latin, not Greek.

 

[DPS]

Or all Catholic

Yes, you could argue that as well. Or better than either, that a sharp distinction between Catholic and Orthodox shouldn't exist in yet in769. While the Schism didn't just appear out of nowhere in 1054; it developed over centuries.