Should Energy and Credits be different resources?

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monkeypunch87

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Well, robots don't use food.

Small trade-focused empires don't get something unique, they are just able to cope with a wide empire.

I'm sorry, if I'm not able to explain it properly. For me, it would change a whole lot and creates different playstyles.
 

Nighzmarquls

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How would gestalt empires buy off the market if this were to happen?

I presume they would get credits from selling bulk goods like every other empire.

They would HAVE to sell something in order to obtain credits with other empires.

It would however probably mean their internal markets would need some tweaking/changes though. Internal market makes even LESS sense for gestalts if we divide this into trade credit and energy.
 

wingren013

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Energy is a better backbone of an economy than gold though. Gold is a relatively useless metal that has only very recently found any use at all.

This is why gold (and silver) was used to back currency. Because its value mostly came from scarcity. Up until recently it was hard to significantly affect the price of gold, because the only thing that could really do that was mining more (ignoring some hypothetical massively increased demand by goldsmiths) and this was a slow process. Energy is not like that. As stated earlier, the value of a given amount of energy can fluctuate throughout the day. Energy production also has far more potential to increase, and if energy can be directly converted into money without anyone purchasing it, there is incentive to massively overproduce energy which will crash the value. It is not a stable base on which to run an economy.

Some world currencys are pegged to the exchange rate of USD. That is, their value is defined as being worth x USD. This is an artifact of the gold standard (and has a couple of relevant finanvial reasons why smaller countries use it), and works because USD itself is a stable currency (the value of USD is unlikely to radically change and follows a trend even if it fluctuates). If USD ever became unstable this would stop.

https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-a-peg-to-the-dollar-3305925
 
Last edited:

Nighzmarquls

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The main difference for the split of energy and energy credits is it will remove the broken manner in which standard empires and trade empires operate in comparison to none-economic empires such as Fantatic Exterminators and Gestalt Intelligences.

Right now Generator districts are more or less useless, a developmental trap and economic/trade value wins on all fields for power production. It's not just an 'option' it's the de-facto way to produce Energy credits unless you are a gestalt.

If we had energy just be a base resource and trade value or something equivalent took its place in all areas of the economy and market we could have a balance. For empires that wanted to live off market energy that would still be an option, but they would have to bow to the supply and demand mechanics of the energy production of their empire and other empires.

It would open up empires to be the POWER PLANTS of the galaxy and this would be distinct from empires that are the market capitals.

Right now the confusion between the two concepts means that power generation has to fight with tradevalue for relevence in the game mechanics. This is a problem. Especially because entire empire types don't interact economically in the same way but can still magic the equivalent of a dyson sphere out of thin air by converting food into energy.
 

Cat_Fuzz

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This is why gold (and silver) was used to back currency. Because its value mostly came from scarcity. Up until recently it was hard to significantly affect the price of gold, because the only thing that could really do that was mining more (ignoring some hypothetical massively increased demand by goldsmiths) and this was a slow process. Energy is nit like that. As stated earlier, the value of a given amount of energy can fluctuate throughout the day. Energy production also has far more potential to increase, and if energy can be directly converted into money without anyone purchasing it, there is incentive to massively overproduce energy which will crash the value. It is not a stable base on which to run an economy.

But here's the thing that you and others equating energy AS currency are missing - more accurately it's currency AS energy. If I asked you to build a house for me, you wouldn't do it, however if I paid you money, you might be more inclined to use your labour for my benefit, and money is a service provided by more labour. Energy as 'power to do things' is a far more valuable currency than simply money alone, and you don't need money to get energy.
 

Reaper_Zwei

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Especially because entire empire types don't interact economically in the same way but can still magic the equivalent of a dyson sphere out of thin air by converting food into energy.

That's because this is a game. If we were to go by reality the reality is that one dyson sphere would produce more energy than you would be able to make on all the colonizable planets combined.
 

Jorgen_CAB

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That's because this is a game. If we were to go by reality the reality is that one dyson sphere would produce more energy than you would be able to make on all the colonizable planets combined.

Yes... a real Dyson Sphere would likely produce billions if not trillions of energy if you compare the energy you can get from a planets as the base line.

The amount of people that could live on a realistic Ringworld would be a few million times larger than what could ever live on a Earth turned Ecumenlopli.

Stellaris is just a game... ;)
 

Nighzmarquls

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Yes... a real Dyson Sphere would likely produce billions if not trillions of energy if you compare the energy you can get from a planets as the base line.

The amount of people that could live on a realistic Ringworld would be a few million times larger than what could ever live on a Earth turned Ecumenlopli.

Stellaris is just a game... ;)

The point is not about realism, it is that what is the POINT of building a dyson sphere or generator districts mechanicaly if you can get as much or MORE energy from trade value?

This is not about realism, it is about the fact that energy credits are pulling double duty for two different mechanics that it is hindering the point of other gameplay mechanics. It's similar to the problem of why there was no point in building anything but naked corvettes militarily. If there is economically and definitively a best way to produce energy credits and you need energy credits then the best course is to build trade networks.

because they out perform equivelant jobs and mechanisms.

Giving the player a dozen choices and then having only one of them being correct in all cases, and then taking that choice away from some number of players without compensating is INCORRECT game design.

It's a fake choice that means large sections of the game play can be safely ignored.

Which is wasteful.

With the economy as it stands the question that it creates is "why do we need generator districts or solar panels at all?" you literally would never choose those if trade value boosters was an option. The payout of trade value is so high that it eclipses any other game play choice for energy production.
 

Aezel

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The old wordplay "time is money" could easily be transcribed into "energy is money". Heck, wars have been fought over energy resources and with continued usage and exhaustion of various energy depots, more wars in the future will likely be fought over energy too.
I'm fairly sure that if stealing or seizing time was a thing, there would've been wars over time as well.
 

Blinky78

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Should Energy and Credits be different resources? Credits would still be produced through trade, and perhaps used to upgrade buildings and buy from the market. While energy would be gotten from generator districts and be used to mantain buildings, fleets, starbases, etc. Plus we could have financial buildings (banks, stock exchanges, etc.) be distinct from energy ones (power plant, solar panels, etc.)

I feel separating Energy and Credits would fit the new economy better. Do you think it's a good idea?

Energy should be done away with as a resource, and credits be produced through trade, and taxation mechanics. With an improved market you could possibly corner the market on resources, and make bank.
 

Chthon

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Yes, I realise that.

What I was getting at is that if Gestalts need to first trade a resource for a given amount of credits then convert those credits into other resources adds an extra burden on them as they would have to pay the market fee twice for any single transaction. With energy as money as it is now they can (with difficulty) accrue energy through the usual robot or hive workings to use as currency on the galactic market.

With currency and energy separated they'd be stuck with losing twice as much to the market as any other empire.
Or they can more efficiently produce goods to sell for their energy on the galactic market. I've recently done a run where I did that instead. You'd be surprised how much money you'd get from selling alloys during a war between two sides.
 

methegrate

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With an improved market you could possibly corner the market on resources, and make bank.

This is what I really wanted. I like most of the changes in 2.2, but I've been overwhelmingly disappointed by the market. I expected and hoped for a real, interactive market simulation with prices that rise and fall according to galactic supply and demand. Instead we got a timer mechanism. "Your minerals will become cheap again in 3... 2... 1..."
 

Chthon

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This is what I really wanted. I like most of the changes in 2.2, but I've been overwhelmingly disappointed by the market. I expected and hoped for a real, interactive market simulation with prices that rise and fall according to galactic supply and demand. Instead we got a timer mechanism. "Your minerals will become cheap again in 3... 2... 1..."
It's interesting you say that. I see the price of alloys consistently go above 20 credits during war time, and right now mid game my empire makes bank selling food and minerals for 2-2.5 credits a unit. This despite the economy drifting back to normal over a 10 year period.

The drift is insignificant when the demand goes high. You must play games with only players that never use the market.
 

Blinky78

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This is what I really wanted. I like most of the changes in 2.2, but I've been overwhelmingly disappointed by the market. I expected and hoped for a real, interactive market simulation with prices that rise and fall according to galactic supply and demand. Instead we got a timer mechanism. "Your minerals will become cheap again in 3... 2... 1..."
I'm hoping this is just an early version of the market, and will be improved upon. Ideally the market would have limited resources, what players sell plus some extra to simulate private and illicit sources.
 

wingren013

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This is what I really wanted. I like most of the changes in 2.2, but I've been overwhelmingly disappointed by the market. I expected and hoped for a real, interactive market simulation with prices that rise and fall according to galactic supply and demand. Instead we got a timer mechanism. "Your minerals will become cheap again in 3... 2... 1..."

Agreed. The market is incredibly dissapointing as a feature. It serves it's purpose but just feels incredibly gamey and doesn't end up being interesting to interact with. An isolationist gestalt empire tilucked away on the rim has as much engagement with the galactic economy as an empire that enagages with all of it's neighbors and produces thousands of trade value. To make matters worse the market capital mechanic is awful. it doesn't matter if the planet in question has been bombed into a ruined and sparsely populated wreck. It will still always be the center of galactic trade.
 

Space Roach

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I just want to say I like energy as currency for flavor reasons. If we ask ourselves what is one thing that all life needs, despite wildly different cultures, values and economic systems? That is energy.

It is the simplest and most liquid form of currency.
 

balmung60

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Should Energy and Credits be different resources? Credits would still be produced through trade, and perhaps used to upgrade buildings and buy from the market. While energy would be gotten from generator districts and be used to mantain buildings, fleets, starbases, etc. Plus we could have financial buildings (banks, stock exchanges, etc.) be distinct from energy ones (power plant, solar panels, etc.)

I feel separating Energy and Credits would fit the new economy better. Do you think it's a good idea?
There are a couple things to consider here.

First, in a modern or futuristic economy, backed currencies are absurd - for example, there isn't enough gold in the world to reinstate the gold standard even if everyone wanted to, and trying it would implode every economy in the world with massive deflation. As such, the energy-backed credit is a laughable regression from fiat currency and is prone to wild, unpredictable fluctuations in money supply. For example, someone (even someone in another empire) building a dyson sphere, much less several civilizations building them, would dump so much energy into the economy as to create a hyperinflation crisis due to how abundant and cheap energy becomes.

Second, fiat currency is awkward as a gameplay mechanic, and even in real life, much less in video game, can encourage gamey monetary policy because the money supply is literally just some numbers on a spreadsheet.

Third, some sort of galactic standard currency is also weird, and while it wouldn't allow players to pull crazy modern monetary theory nonsense, raises the question of why the fanatic purifiers and xenophobic isolationists use the same money as anyone else? And gestalts wouldn't even have a concept of money.

My overall opinion is that energy-as-currency is moronic in any sensible analysis, and if anything, the idea of having to worry about having enough "money" in a interstellar empire with any decent, modern (much less more advanced) understanding of economics is actually kind of weird. If a specific currency must exist as a gameplay value, energy sort of as a mechanic, but it creates a lot of oddities, like the idea of trade, an energy-consuming task, creating energy or "buying" it from nowhere, as well as having robots that literally eat money.
 

balmung60

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1 gram of gold is 1 gram of gold is 1 gram of gold and yet it varies in value because how you use gold can change, just like how you use energy can change.
Also, it's still susceptible to supply and demand. If someone builds a dyson sphere, the supply goes up massively and a single megajoule is worth much less.
 

SpectralShade

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This is why gold (and silver) was used to back currency. Because its value mostly came from scarcity. Up until recently it was hard to significantly affect the price of gold, because the only thing that could really do that was mining more (ignoring some hypothetical massively increased demand by goldsmiths) and this was a slow process. Energy is not like that. As stated earlier, the value of a given amount of energy can fluctuate throughout the day. Energy production also has far more potential to increase, and if energy can be directly converted into money without anyone purchasing it, there is incentive to massively overproduce energy which will crash the value. It is not a stable base on which to run an economy.

Some world currencys are pegged to the exchange rate of USD. That is, their value is defined as being worth x USD. This is an artifact of the gold standard (and has a couple of relevant finanvial reasons why smaller countries use it), and works because USD itself is a stable currency (the value of USD is unlikely to radically change and follows a trend even if it fluctuates). If USD ever became unstable this would stop.

https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-a-peg-to-the-dollar-3305925

The US dollar is actually a pretty volatile currency, and there are theories that state it is only a matter of time before it implodes on itself due to the constant moneyprinting of US dollars that have been made.

The US dollar only survives because it is tied to the petrodollar, which ironically makes it dependant on energy to even survive as a currency. Without the petrodollar agreements, the US dollar would have crashed along time ago with the amount of dollar notes that have been printed over the years.
 

SpectralShade

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There are a couple things to consider here.

First, in a modern or futuristic economy, backed currencies are absurd - for example, there isn't enough gold in the world to reinstate the gold standard even if everyone wanted to, and trying it would implode every economy in the world with massive deflation. As such, the energy-backed credit is a laughable regression from fiat currency and is prone to wild, unpredictable fluctuations in money supply. For example, someone (even someone in another empire) building a dyson sphere, much less several civilizations building them, would dump so much energy into the economy as to create a hyperinflation crisis due to how abundant and cheap energy becomes.

Second, fiat currency is awkward as a gameplay mechanic, and even in real life, much less in video game, can encourage gamey monetary policy because the money supply is literally just some numbers on a spreadsheet.

Third, some sort of galactic standard currency is also weird, and while it wouldn't allow players to pull crazy modern monetary theory nonsense, raises the question of why the fanatic purifiers and xenophobic isolationists use the same money as anyone else? And gestalts wouldn't even have a concept of money.

My overall opinion is that energy-as-currency is moronic in any sensible analysis, and if anything, the idea of having to worry about having enough "money" in a interstellar empire with any decent, modern (much less more advanced) understanding of economics is actually kind of weird. If a specific currency must exist as a gameplay value, energy sort of as a mechanic, but it creates a lot of oddities, like the idea of trade, an energy-consuming task, creating energy or "buying" it from nowhere, as well as having robots that literally eat money.

We are talking about a resource that is the groundstone for actually being able to do anything. (warships don't fly themselves, guns don't shoot themselves. etc.)

We are also discussing a resource that should be widely recognizable between species that have no interest in artificial constructs like fiat currency of another species. If I take a bunch of money from some obscure country and tries to use them in a regular shop, I'm going to be told to come up with a proper currency to pay for whatever I want to buy. Likewise, I wouldn't expect to be able to use whatever random internal monetary currency from a small empire when dealing with another empire in stellaris, simply because the currency would have no inherent value to them. Thus you need to trade in something that has a recognizable value to both parties. Energy solves this by being a resource that is simply what you need to get things done. anything done.