Should Energy and Credits be different resources?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
O

OfficerBrennan

Guest
Yeah, with the current game mechanics, energy credits works well enough in its pseudo currency-commodity position. Having a separate currency to manage, for the sake of having a dedicated currency, probably isn't really needed unless there are new mechanics that require it.

Exchange rates, monetary policy and capital mobility (and the inevitable forum posts from players (and AI) getting it hopelessly wrong) would be pretty cool, but it's not really Stellaris then.
 

Talanic

Colonel
21 Badges
Jun 6, 2016
816
307
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Magicka
I will be "that guy" and point out that energy would be a hideously terrible thing to use as a currency, for any civilization at any level of development, because the price of energy is extremely unstable, varying even with the weather. If you ever want an economist to look at you with a mixture of horror and confusion, suggest that we go back to fixed exchange rates, but pegged to the price of oil instead of the price of gold.

Can you just imagine the madness of a future economy using energy credits? Inflation every time new power plants are built. Crippling money supply shortages every time the fleet mobilizes for war. A catastrophic collapse of the value of your entire life savings every time a new type of power generation technology is developed. The dyson sphere being turned on and immediately ushering in the Great Galactic Depression. Just look at the basket-case economies of real world countries that rely too much on oil exports to fund their society and you'll get just a fractional glimpse of how insane it would be.

I realize that energy credits are a common sci fi trope and that Stellaris is about trope fantasy fulfillment, not realism, but it's still a really dumb trope. I'm much more comfortable when they violate the laws of physics.

You're assuming a unity between the civilian economy and the economy of the empire - not that you don't have reason to, with how abstract the civilian economy is in Stellaris. Simply put, though, energy credits represent what the Empire can bring to bear in order to power its various resources. According to some event outcomes, sometimes energy credits are explicitly precious stones - which can be liquidated in said economy and translated into a standardized galactic currency (currentcy?). The reverse is not necessarily true; although you do have the occasional event - like buying out a precursor artifact from a collector for 500 credits - for the most part I would expect energy credits to convert rather poorly into the smaller economy due to being too unwieldy to use.

What would YOU do if someone offered to buy your car for one gigawatt-hour? Technically that would be worth a decent chunk of money, more than your car is (probably) worth, but how would you ever manage to convert it?
 

Cat_Fuzz

General
May 10, 2016
1.775
2.381
It's really easy to define though:

EC: Labour and Services (which money and finance is included in that, along with power supply)

MINERALS: Raw production of elements such as metals, stones, ores and construction material.

CONSUMER GDS: The conversion of raw materials into Goods used by people for their daily needs, from smartphones, fridges and furniture to games, clothes etc.

ALLOYS: The conversion of raw materials into manufactured parts and supplies for specialist products, mostly space faring vessels and construction

TRADE V: The ideological benefit of taxation and spend from internal transactions of all of the above.

I fail to see why seperating EC into two seperate things will benefit the game - it works well enough in this abstract sense
 

SpectralShade

Major
69 Badges
Apr 15, 2018
554
33
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Majesty 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Age of Wonders III
  • War of the Roses
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
We don't care because the Euro is fiat currency. It's value is based on the exchange value of USD and the trust in the European union. We would care if it was backed by something, say gold, and the value of gold changed dramatically. This is basic the basic idea is that each piece of backed currency corresponds to an exact amount of whatever is backing it. This can cause hyperinflation very easily if a large source of whatever is used to back the currency is introduced to the economy. It also prevents governments from properly responding to economic crises, which is why the gold standard was suspended in WW1 and again during the Great Depression. Backing your currency with energy would cause runaway inflation punctuated by spikes of deflation and be an awful basis on which to run an economy (because if people can't trust the value of currency they are unlikely to invest). Logically, the governments of Stellaris should be experiencing a huge financial crisis around the midgame as energy becomes less valuable through increased levels of production.

the petrodollar
 
O

OfficerBrennan

Guest
The US dollar is not backed by oil.

Now, we use US dollars to buy and sell oil for numerous technical, economic and political reasons (assuming that is what is meant by the term 'petrodollar'. There's many different definitions for petrodollar and they describe separate aspects, which can be confusing), but it remains a fiat currency. The theory wingren013 posted is still technically valid.
 

SpectralShade

Major
69 Badges
Apr 15, 2018
554
33
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Majesty 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Age of Wonders III
  • War of the Roses
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
The US dollar is not backed by oil.

Now, we use US dollars to buy and sell oil for numerous technical, economic and political reasons (assuming that is what is meant by the term 'petrodollar'. There's many different definitions for petrodollar and they describe separate aspects, which can be confusing), but it remains a fiat currency. The theory wingren013 posted is still technically valid.

the petrodollar and us dollar are 2 different things
 
O

OfficerBrennan

Guest
What's the definition of petrodollar in this discussion, before we go in circles? I don't understand what point you're raising at the moment.
 

SpectralShade

Major
69 Badges
Apr 15, 2018
554
33
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Majesty 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Age of Wonders III
  • War of the Roses
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
The us dollar is basicly a paper of "I owe u" towards a private banking cartel.

The petrodollar is a systemic conversion of energy (oil) to a dictated currency.

Energy is such a valuable commodity in the modern world that it was seen as THE most important commodity to control evaluation of, hence the petrodollar and attempts of controlling that evaluation.

As could be noted, the entirity of the US military machine (or any other military machine) would be worthless without energy to power it, and thus control of energy in any way it could be achieved was deemed extremely important.

Wars have been fought over wether or not countries were allowed to NOT use the petrodollar evaluation.
 
O

OfficerBrennan

Guest
Yeah I get that. I still don't understand why you quoted wingren013. What is the issue you want to raise?

EDIT: We got wingren013 stating the US dollar is fiat and describing a hypothetical scenario where a currency was backed by energy generation, and we've got some reasons why oil is traded in US dollars. I guess I'm being dense, but what's the link here?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

SpectralShade

Major
69 Badges
Apr 15, 2018
554
33
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Majesty 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Age of Wonders III
  • War of the Roses
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
the effect of the petrodollar uncontrolled is more or less what he described in the last bit. The problem for the us dollar is its reliance on the petrodollar and the fact that other nations are trying get around the petrodollar evaluation. If such an event is sucesfull, it will have a huge financial impact on the US dollar and US economy in general.

In the real world, energy IS money, and that is why there is such an attempt to control its flow and tradevalue to fiat money. US Control of energy evaluation (oil) through the petro dollar have been THE determing factor of allowing the US dollar to survive in spite of the huge economic problems that would have caused any normal economy to crash and burn a long time ago.
 

methegrate

General
27 Badges
Jun 20, 2016
2.410
3.564
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
I realize that energy credits are a common sci fi trope and that Stellaris is about trope fantasy fulfillment, not realism, but it's still a really dumb trope. I'm much more comfortable when they violate the laws of physics.

I opened this thread to say literally exactly this, but much less entertainingly.

There's a lot of overlap between people interested in science and technology and "hard money" activists (people who insist that money must be backed by something with hard supply limits or intrinsic value). I'm not entirely sure why, they're aren't related fields, but I'm pretty sure it's why energy backed currency is one of the most stable sci-fi tropes out there.

You are, of course, completely right. Hard money doesn't work. And if pegging a currency to gold's fixed supply is bad for an economy, pegging it to something as fluid as total kilowatt hours currently produced would be catastrophic. You'd have a recession during every heat wave and a speculation boom when everyone parks their cars for the weekend.
 

methegrate

General
27 Badges
Jun 20, 2016
2.410
3.564
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
The way you use it is probably not really what change in terms of energy. Different energy sources can be more or less efficient though. But if you could store energy perfectly intact and with 100% efficiency in a battery the use of it will not change.

The price on the other hand is a matter of supply and demand. If supply is higher than demand the price is low etc...

The thing that mostly prevent us from producing more stuff or more energy heavy stuff is the availability of cheap energy and the price for the finished goods, it is rather simple. It's not like we need people to produce the stuff... access to cheap enough energy will prevent production of certain items for the price the consumers are able to pay for it.

So basically... of we had more easily obtainable energy we could do so much more, the amount of people are almost inconsequential. This goes for recycling materials too.

Great point. This is what's getting overlooked here. Commenters like @Chthon are confusing intrinsic value with trade value, or "utility" vs. "value."

Intrinsic value is the value of a commodity when used or consumed. As noted above, 1 MJ when put into the right machine might get me 1 Amount of Work. Or a loaf of bread, when eaten, sates a certain amount of hunger. This is its utility.

That's different from trade value, which is how much someone will give you in exchange for the asset when negotiating. This is the asset's value.

Intrinsic value/utility depends on you, your needs and your ability to use a commodity. Trade value depends on you, your trading partner, and supply and demand.

As you say, "more easily obtainable energy" is essentially another way of saying "cheap energy." For a post-peak fossil fuel economy, energy would be in extremely short supply and therefore would have a lot of trade value. For a civilization with a dyson sphere, energy would be near-limitless and therefore all but valueless.

Returning to @Chthon's formulation, in both cases 1 MJ will do 1 Amount of Work. However in our oil crisis the ability to do 1 Amount of Work is much more rare, and so has much more value (making it more expensive). Someone will trade a lot for that 1 MJ. In the latter case if someone asks a lot for 1 MJ you can just go buy it somewhere else, because megajoules are common and therefore cheap. Value has fluctuated wildly even though utility has remained constant.

Or take our loaf of bread. It will always sate the same amount of hunger, but someone starving will trade much more for it than someone who has recently eaten. Or someone in a desert compared to someone standing next to fifteen bakeries. It's because, again, value is situational even while utility remains fixed.

Or, as a final example, we know that energy prices aren't stable because we see that in the real world. Oil is a main 21st Century energy market and prices fluctuate every day. The price of a barrel of oil can skitter anywhere from $25 to over $100. That's value changing by 400 percent, even though the utility of that oil has remained relatively fixed.

Heck, let's strip out the middleman. The price of an actual kilowatt hour changes all the time. This isn't even stored energy, it's the actual electricity itself. Just in the United States it can range from 8 cents to 33 cents on average depending on where and when you buy it. My lights don't glow any brighter, my waffles don't toast any crisper, but my energy might cost a lot more because of pure supply and demand.
 
Last edited:

Mastikator

Technocrat
16 Badges
Jul 2, 2017
3.372
4.599
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Magicka
  • Stellaris
We don't care because the Euro is fiat currency. It's value is based on the exchange value of USD and the trust in the European union. We would care if it was backed by something, say gold, and the value of gold changed dramatically. This is basic the basic idea is that each piece of backed currency corresponds to an exact amount of whatever is backing it. This can cause hyperinflation very easily if a large source of whatever is used to back the currency is introduced to the economy. It also prevents governments from properly responding to economic crises, which is why the gold standard was suspended in WW1 and again during the Great Depression. Backing your currency with energy would cause runaway inflation punctuated by spikes of deflation and be an awful basis on which to run an economy (because if people can't trust the value of currency they are unlikely to invest). Logically, the governments of Stellaris should be experiencing a huge financial crisis around the midgame as energy becomes less valuable through increased levels of production.
Energy is a better backbone of an economy than gold though. Gold is a relatively useless metal that has only very recently found any use at all.

Energy on the other hand is used by everything and everyone, everything runs on energy and if you have more energy then you have more possibilities, the economy expands in all directions the more energy you have and so energy's value does not significantly decrease, the economy just gets bigger and bigger.
 

Reaper_Zwei

Sergeant
49 Badges
Sep 14, 2016
58
53
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
So what would this do for the game? Cause splitting them does nothing to change the game what so ever. All you've done at that point is just made one more resource that will only be used for the market. Or will it be used in upkeep? like you need energy and credits to upkeep a building/ district. Will we need to pay credits to buy buildings and districts? What is the idea here? Cause even with all that its just overlapping what other resources do. So what could we do with credits that we cant already do with the current resources?

In other words how would this change the game?
 

PirateJack

Lt. General
69 Badges
Jun 1, 2009
1.388
630
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Prison Architect
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 2
You do realize that trade is just trading one resource for another... as long as machines have at least one resource to trade they don't really need their own way to generate credits.

I would also say that credits is sort of a strange thing... if you introduce credits you also need to have inflation since credits in and of itself can never actually do anything, Credits on their own is worthless.

Yes, I realise that.

What I was getting at is that if Gestalts need to first trade a resource for a given amount of credits then convert those credits into other resources adds an extra burden on them as they would have to pay the market fee twice for any single transaction. With energy as money as it is now they can (with difficulty) accrue energy through the usual robot or hive workings to use as currency on the galactic market.

With currency and energy separated they'd be stuck with losing twice as much to the market as any other empire.
 

xsmilingbanditx

Colonel
72 Badges
Jun 25, 2012
818
929
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
I will be "that guy" and point out that energy would be a hideously terrible thing to use as a currency, for any civilization at any level of development, because the price of energy is extremely unstable, varying even with the weather. If you ever want an economist to look at you with a mixture of horror and confusion, suggest that we go back to fixed exchange rates, but pegged to the price of oil instead of the price of gold.

Can you just imagine the madness of a future economy using energy credits? Inflation every time new power plants are built. Crippling money supply shortages every time the fleet mobilizes for war. A catastrophic collapse of the value of your entire life savings every time a new type of power generation technology is developed. The dyson sphere being turned on and immediately ushering in the Great Galactic Depression. Just look at the basket-case economies of real world countries that rely too much on oil exports to fund their society and you'll get just a fractional glimpse of how insane it would be.

I realize that energy credits are a common sci fi trope and that Stellaris is about trope fantasy fulfillment, not realism, but it's still a really dumb trope. I'm much more comfortable when they violate the laws of physics.

Energy as a currency does make sense. But ONLY if you're able to generate close to any object/element/whatever as by E=mc^2 :)
 

monkeypunch87

Major
89 Badges
Jun 1, 2018
733
838
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Island Bound
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Surviving Mars
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
So what would this do for the game? Cause splitting them does nothing to change the game what so ever. All you've done at that point is just made one more resource that will only be used for the market. Or will it be used in upkeep? like you need energy and credits to upkeep a building/ district. Will we need to pay credits to buy buildings and districts? What is the idea here? Cause even with all that its just overlapping what other resources do. So what could we do with credits that we cant already do with the current resources?

In other words how would this change the game?
It would change how you approach the energy and credit production.

Let's say, you need energy/electricity, which you create in your energy districts and with mining stations, just for upkeep of your buildings and robots. You just need enough electricity to balance your personal needs, but you also have to produce it in your empire. Even trade-heavy empires suddenly need to produce enough electricity. Right now, I actually almost never need to build energy districts.

Credits/money, on the other hand, could be only created with the new trade value and with selling stuff on the market. If you want to use the market to its full potential, you need to able to export goods or create enough trade value in your empire to have credits to buy goods. Smaller Trade Nations also get through their playstyle with credits more of a unique ressource, which could they make more competitive to wide empires.
 

Reaper_Zwei

Sergeant
49 Badges
Sep 14, 2016
58
53
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
It would change how you approach the energy and credit production.

Let's say, you need energy/electricity, which you create in your energy districts and with mining stations, just for upkeep of your buildings and robots. You just need enough electricity to balance your personal needs, but you also have to produce it in your empire. Even trade-heavy empires suddenly need to produce enough electricity. Right now, I actually almost never need to build energy districts.

Credits/money, on the other hand, could be only created with the new trade value and with selling stuff on the market. If you want to use the market to its full potential, you need to able to export goods or create enough trade value in your empire to have credits to buy goods. Smaller Trade Nations also get through their playstyle with credits more of a unique ressource, which could they make more competitive to wide empires.

But what is that changing? In your first paragraph your talking about changing energy back into what it was before. A resource that you only need to maintain. We already have food for that type of resource. also i dont see being able to get by soley on trade with no energy districts as a bad thing. just adds another way to play the game. In your second paragraph your talking about what trade as energy can already do. You can already build small empires that focus extremely on trade and just buy everything they need.

My point is that the change isn't really changing anything. Your taking one resource splitting it into two and then having those two combined do what just one does now. I'm not saying it shouldn't be split just that what your proposing doesn't change anything, and if we do split them then credits should do something that cant be done with the current resources.