Should Energy and Credits be different resources?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Arcvalons

Field Marshal
74 Badges
Feb 21, 2010
3.310
4.471
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • For The Glory
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
Should Energy and Credits be different resources? Credits would still be produced through trade, and perhaps used to upgrade buildings and buy from the market. While energy would be gotten from generator districts and be used to mantain buildings, fleets, starbases, etc. Plus we could have financial buildings (banks, stock exchanges, etc.) be distinct from energy ones (power plant, solar panels, etc.)

I feel separating Energy and Credits would fit the new economy better. Do you think it's a good idea?
 

LeonOfOddecca

First Lieutenant
45 Badges
Jun 13, 2012
257
108
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Prison Architect
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
I agree with you primarily because right now it makes more sense to specialise in energy production than in any other another resource (except for food because base production is 6). Suppose you specialise in mineral production. To trade minerals for another resource (other than energy itself) you have to cop a market fee for selling the minerals, then another market fee for buying the resource. But to trade energy for another resource you only cop the market fee once (because you never sell energy).

So yes, because of the market I think that having energy play the role of currency is a bit unbalanced.
 

Chthon

Captain
23 Badges
Oct 31, 2011
361
0
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Cities in Motion
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Dungeonland
  • Crusader Kings II
I agree with you primarily because right now it makes more sense to specialise in energy production than in any other another resource (except for food because base production is 6). Suppose you specialise in mineral production. To trade minerals for another resource (other than energy itself) you have to cop a market fee for selling the minerals, then another market fee for buying the resource. But to trade energy for another resource you only cop the market fee once (because you never sell energy).

So yes, because of the market I think that having energy play the role of currency is a bit unbalanced.
Seeing as towards mid and end game, everything costs more than it's base cost in energy credits or the cost to produce said item from other items in energy credits, when does it ever make sense to specialize in energy? It doesn't! You are better off making something worth more, and selling it than making pure energy. I would go so far as insist that you want to avoid making energy at any cost once the galactic market is available.
 

Blurb

Major
36 Badges
Feb 22, 2018
700
70
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Impire
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Crusader Kings II
Seeing as towards mid and end game, everything costs more than it's base cost in energy credits or the cost to produce said item from other items in energy credits, when does it ever make sense to specialize in energy? It doesn't! You are better off making something worth more, and selling it than making pure energy. I would go so far as insist that you want to avoid making energy at any cost once the galactic market is available.
I'd suggest that you don't design your economy in a way that makes it dependent on a market which you have little to no control over.
 

Losttruppen

Colonel
38 Badges
Oct 20, 2016
821
1.436
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Age of Wonders III
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
While I would love if they did something like this to counter the fact you don't need any energy sectors at all for most empires past the mid game and to implement the new pops/jobs to space resources in some way I feel the decrease in performance this update brought when it was meant to do the opposite is something that needs to be looked at before making even more changes in the same vein.
 

Adantigus

First Lieutenant
48 Badges
May 22, 2011
297
49
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Pride of Nations
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Majesty 2
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Age of Wonders
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Magicka 2
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
I will be "that guy" and point out that energy would be a hideously terrible thing to use as a currency, for any civilization at any level of development, because the price of energy is extremely unstable, varying even with the weather. If you ever want an economist to look at you with a mixture of horror and confusion, suggest that we go back to fixed exchange rates, but pegged to the price of oil instead of the price of gold.

Can you just imagine the madness of a future economy using energy credits? Inflation every time new power plants are built. Crippling money supply shortages every time the fleet mobilizes for war. A catastrophic collapse of the value of your entire life savings every time a new type of power generation technology is developed. The dyson sphere being turned on and immediately ushering in the Great Galactic Depression. Just look at the basket-case economies of real world countries that rely too much on oil exports to fund their society and you'll get just a fractional glimpse of how insane it would be.

I realize that energy credits are a common sci fi trope and that Stellaris is about trope fantasy fulfillment, not realism, but it's still a really dumb trope. I'm much more comfortable when they violate the laws of physics.
 

wingren013

Lt. General
79 Badges
Nov 28, 2013
1.615
1.762
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Age of Wonders
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Impire
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Victoria 2
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
How would gestalt empires buy off the market if this were to happen?

Same way the Soviet Union bought things from other countries. Selling things for currency.

I will be "that guy" and point out that energy would be a hideously terrible thing to use as a currency, for any civilization at any level of development, because the price of energy is extremely unstable, varying even with the weather. If you ever want an economist to look at you with a mixture of horror and confusion, suggest that we go back to fixed exchange rates, but pegged to the price of oil instead of the price of gold.

It's also incredibly difficult to transport even f you have super batteries because you will lose some every time you do that.
 

Chthon

Captain
23 Badges
Oct 31, 2011
361
0
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Cities in Motion
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Dungeonland
  • Crusader Kings II
Same way the Soviet Union bought things from other countries. Selling things for currency.



It's also incredibly difficult to transport even f you have super batteries because you will lose some every time you do that.
You aren't transporting energy more than you are transporting the stuff to create energy. Fossil fuels, nuclear fuel, etc. You can calculate how much energy every single one can produce and thus put a price on it.
 

pryr

Major
Mar 6, 2017
589
62
Uniting energy and cash was one of most genius things that stellaris made because they pretty much serve the one role - paying for upkeep. And that also makes easy to deal with energy surpluses - just buy something.
It may have not much sense realistically, but it makes economy simple and easy. Separating energy and credits will add no gameplay value by itself and will create gaps in uses of credits and energy both which should be filled with something. Soo, any cool engaging ideas about new uses of energy and cash that will justify devs worktime on this separation?
 
Last edited:

Etrutian

Arch Priest of Profit
89 Badges
Mar 12, 2012
635
54
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • BATTLETECH
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • PDXCON 2017 Standard Ticket holder
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Vikings
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
The only way I see a separation working is either fully killing energy or making energy a planet-local resource like amenities. Not interested in either.

The current system roughly represents energy as a credit system (like purchasing carbon credits in the US during that period). At the deepest root, all industry is fueled by energy and the price of industry is related to the energy required to produce some outcome. Extra pricing is then tacked on for market influences.


I don't think separation is the worst, I just don't know of any alternative that would be interesting.
 

Althizor

Sergeant
Nov 1, 2018
59
0
I'd suggest that you don't design your economy in a way that makes it dependent on a market which you have little to no control over.


The market resets price so quickly it is pretty reliable. I've stopped making generator districts entirely. Farms are a much better source of energy, especially once you get market fee modifiers.

I could see there being a problem in multiplayer of too many people try to substitute food for energy production. But single player? Just sell that space wheat (and minerals and alloys)
 

SpectralShade

Major
69 Badges
Apr 15, 2018
554
33
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Majesty 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Age of Wonders III
  • War of the Roses
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
I will be "that guy" and point out that energy would be a hideously terrible thing to use as a currency, for any civilization at any level of development, because the price of energy is extremely unstable, varying even with the weather. If you ever want an economist to look at you with a mixture of horror and confusion, suggest that we go back to fixed exchange rates, but pegged to the price of oil instead of the price of gold.

Can you just imagine the madness of a future economy using energy credits? Inflation every time new power plants are built. Crippling money supply shortages every time the fleet mobilizes for war. A catastrophic collapse of the value of your entire life savings every time a new type of power generation technology is developed. The dyson sphere being turned on and immediately ushering in the Great Galactic Depression. Just look at the basket-case economies of real world countries that rely too much on oil exports to fund their society and you'll get just a fractional glimpse of how insane it would be.

I realize that energy credits are a common sci fi trope and that Stellaris is about trope fantasy fulfillment, not realism, but it's still a really dumb trope. I'm much more comfortable when they violate the laws of physics.

actually, in the broad sense, energy IS money, in the real world.
Anything you do or buy require energy.
Drive to work? car requires energy to be able to move.
Buy something? product requires energy to be made.
Use your household products at home? requires energy.

The old wordplay "time is money" could easily be transcribed into "energy is money". Heck, wars have been fought over energy resources and with continued usage and exhaustion of various energy depots, more wars in the future will likely be fought over energy too.

Money only have the value that people decide they have. Cutoff from civilazation in the arctic, holding a wad of dollarbills won't make you able to buy a service by itself. Having an energy source in the same situation could most likely make you able to buy something by 'selling' energy for favours or goods, though.

it makes sense to use energy as a 'galactic resource that is interchangable between species.
 

PirateJack

Lt. General
69 Badges
Jun 1, 2009
1.388
630
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Prison Architect
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 2
More than that, it's the only thing that has static value no matter where you are in the universe. Assuming the laws of physics don't change over distance, the energy needed to accelerate an object to 30mph is the same no matter where you are. Sure, local conditions can affect that (it's easier to accelerate in low gravity, for instance) but it's still the same amount of energy, just from different sources.
 

Jorgen_CAB

Field Marshal
57 Badges
May 2, 2002
5.142
2.995
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
How would gestalt empires buy off the market if this were to happen?

You do realize that trade is just trading one resource for another... as long as machines have at least one resource to trade they don't really need their own way to generate credits.

I would also say that credits is sort of a strange thing... if you introduce credits you also need to have inflation since credits in and of itself can never actually do anything, Credits on their own is worthless.
 

KingAlamar

General
Nov 5, 2016
1.931
281
This may not be realistic but I'd prefer the markets work more as a barter system. If you have an excess of minerals and you want Zro you should be able to directly swap X amount of minerals for the Zro [via the marketplace] so you only get hit by market fees once.

Granted I believe the more "realistic" metric would be some type of credit system [Credits can ~= Energy or minerals or whatever] but then you come back to the issue of generating credits by selling X then having to buy Y with the generated credits. I'd rather just cut out the extra step.
 

Adantigus

First Lieutenant
48 Badges
May 22, 2011
297
49
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Pride of Nations
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Majesty 2
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Age of Wonders
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Magicka 2
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
Money only have the value that people decide they have. Cutoff from civilazation in the arctic, holding a wad of dollarbills won't make you able to buy a service by itself. Having an energy source in the same situation could most likely make you able to buy something by 'selling' energy for favours or goods, though.

Actually, the same can be said about energy. How much value does a trillion gigajoules of stored energy have if you're stranded on an lifeless planet and about to run out of food? Energy only has value if you can do something with it. The same is true about time, by the way. People say "time is money," but that statement is not literal - we can't sell the two hours we're stuck at the airport, nor can we buy back the hours we wasted on internet forums for any amount of money.

More than that, it's the only thing that has static value no matter where you are in the universe. Assuming the laws of physics don't change over distance, the energy needed to accelerate an object to 30mph is the same no matter where you are. Sure, local conditions can affect that (it's easier to accelerate in low gravity, for instance) but it's still the same amount of energy, just from different sources.

Nothing has "static value," because the economic value of something depends not just on what you can physically do with it, but on what you can exchange it for, and what you can exchange it for depends on how much there is and how much people need (supply and demand). Things only have value relative to other things. Sure, the physical properties of the energy itself stay more or less the same no matter where you are. But that's not the same as it having the same value, because the actual work you can do with it doesn't have the same value. That acceleration to 30mph you mentioned might be very useful in some places and worth nothing in others. A huge pile of energy is very valuable if you're surrounded by machines that can turn it into useful work, and worthless if you're on a broken ship billions of miles from civilization.

These are extreme examples, but they illustrate the point that energy, just like everything else, has a value that goes up and down depending on circumstances. What makes energy a bad currency is that (setting aside portability issues which technology might solve) its value goes up and down frequently and unpredictably. It's like using dice to determine your economic policy.

If you could directly convert energy into matter of any kind and in any shape, then yes, you could "trade" energy for any (physical) thing. But even then it wouldn't have a static value, because its value relative to various services and intellectual property would be variable.
 

Invictus5966

Captain
73 Badges
Mar 6, 2015
439
371
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
Should Energy and Credits be different resources? Credits would still be produced through trade, and perhaps used to upgrade buildings and buy from the market. While energy would be gotten from generator districts and be used to mantain buildings, fleets, starbases, etc. Plus we could have financial buildings (banks, stock exchanges, etc.) be distinct from energy ones (power plant, solar panels, etc.)

I feel separating Energy and Credits would fit the new economy better. Do you think it's a good idea?

Not all races have trade. What about those?