Should "cleansing" new colonies be considered purging?

[scaper12123]

One thing I find annoying is the fact that my empire is viewed as abhorrent if we go to war to demand that somebody remove a colony they established near our space that is frustratingly close to my borders. You're the one who set up that colony, tentacles for eyes, on the 9 tile arid world in orbit around the 25 tile alpine world that I needed! Is it so wrong that I force you to evacuate your colonists before you're properly established?

Why does cleansing work in the perspective of murdering colonists, anyhow? I guess it makes sense for a fully populated planet but if it's just a starting colony without a planetary administration? I think there should be a consequence-free war goal to force an opponent to abandon said colony without it being considered purging. It should be viewed more as an evacuation, honestly.

 

[Alblaka]

I would assume that the 1.5 Wargoal will reflect this, by using whatever 'purging method' your empire has set for the respective species'.
I.e. if you set it to Forced Evacuation, it will just kick the pops out and trigger Refugee events all over, which would, hopefully, be less overkill-severe in terms of relations.

 

[Ezumiyr]

Except that the "cleanse planet" wargoal is not an evacuation. The pops are purged, they are not moved.

 

[corny.1234]

I would assume that the 1.5 Wargoal will reflect this, by using whatever 'purging method' your empire has set for the respective species'.
I.e. if you set it to Forced Evacuation, it will just kick the pops out and trigger Refugee events all over, which would, hopefully, be less overkill-severe in terms of relations.

This would be problematic if you already have a planet with this species, as purging laws are species wide

 

[AndragonLea]

Even if it doesn't, simply taking the world, transplanting one or more pops and then setting the prior race to "undesirable" would force them to migrate away over a period of time.

Not immediately useful, but much better than "gtfo translates to welcome to the gas chambers". T_T

This would be problematic if you already have a planet with this species, as purging laws are species wide

That depends on how adamant you are about choosing colonised systems yourself. As the system included a 2x tile world he wanted to colonise anyways, having a 9 tile satellite might not be horribad. Just make it a farm world and consider it an unwanted present. ^^

That said, we really DO need a way to get rid of such systems without becoming literally worse than Hitler.

 

[Stoßtrupp Gold]

Initially i also thought that wargoal would make the enemy withdraw their pops (though not on a pop per pop base but in a metaphorical sense) and give up the planets. The first time i used that wargoal i was also quite surprised to see that i´ve gotten a big purge penalty.
May be in a future "Warfare-Patch" we´ll get the "give me the planet but keep your pops"-war demand. Though this would require an additional mechanic of acquiring territorial control (Problem as it is now = uncolonized planets don´t expand borders). Something like creating a claim on systems would be nice. So everyone would now, touching that system would provoke a war.

 

[B3ndolf]

Initially i also thought that wargoal would make the enemy withdraw their pops (though not on a pop per pop base but in a metaphorical sense) and give up the planets. The first time i used that wargoal i was also quite surprised to see that i´ve gotten a big purge penalty.
May be in a future "Warfare-Patch" we´ll get the "give me the planet but keep your pops"-war demand. Though this would require an additional mechanic of acquiring territorial control (Problem as it is now = uncolonized planets don´t expand borders). Something like creating a claim on systems would be nice. So everyone would now, touching that system would provoke a war.

we already have that its called frontier outposts

i wouldnt be opposed to a system similar to eu4 where you can show the ai things that are of strategic interest and vital importance to your empire but only if they can implement it in a way that helps the AI and doesnt hinder it.

 

[Jastebro]

There's a fix for that.
One of the new Utopia features is different purge options. Exile them as refugees, neuter, eat, or simply exterminate them

 

[Stoßtrupp Gold]

Frontier outposts are a step ahead as you already get control of that and neighboring systems.

I see the purge policies as a internal politics, while war demands are some kind of "foreign affairs".
E. g. with the war demand "cleanse planet" i have fast way to get rid off unwanted xenos on a precious planet all at once without have them join your empire.
You could achieve the same result by using "cede planet" and then purge that pops via policy though that would take a lot longer.
So policies effect your existing parts of your empire while the war demands effect soon-to-be-parts of your empire. With the second being faster in achieving the desired results.

Though i agree that the "exile them as refugees"-policy is relatively close. Yet a faster working war demand with the same result would be nice.
Hopefully that policy doesn´t take awfull long and confers only a fixed relation penalty close to repugnant and not a staggering one like purging.

 

[Alblaka]

This would be problematic if you already have a planet with this species, as purging laws are species wide

And the issue is?
I'm just saying that, whatever purging settings you have for the species living on the planet, or alternatively your default setting (which has to be some form of purging, or otherwise you wouldnt have access to the Cleanse wargoal in first place) should be applied to the planet.
Note that just because you are not purging a species, doesn't mean the game can't determine what it would use as default purging for that species, if it were required to purge them.

 

[The Founder]

One thing I find annoying is the fact that my empire is viewed as abhorrent if we go to war to demand that somebody remove a colony they established near our space that is frustratingly close to my borders. You're the one who set up that colony, tentacles for eyes, on the 9 tile arid world in orbit around the 25 tile alpine world that I needed! Is it so wrong that I force you to evacuate your colonists before you're properly established?

I have not see anything below size 12 since teh habitability rework. At wich point it would be as good as s habitat.
You are conqueror/wide approach anyway. You gave up on avoiding the Colony penalties to unity and reserach anyway. That 9 tile planet would still be 100% interesting as a place to put another spaceport. You got 2 spaceports in one system, a even better deal in 1.5 then in 1.4 (lower core system cap).

This would be problematic if you already have a planet with this species, as purging laws are species wide

The wargoal was always about the purge potential. Not you already purging some of those pops.
Of course the fact that pops of the same species in your empire were pissed about you purging thier species kind of incentivised a "do all or nothing" approach. Even if they have purge tollerancy towards others, themself getting purged is another mater.

Initially i also thought that wargoal would make the enemy withdraw their pops (though not on a pop per pop base but in a metaphorical sense) and give up the planets. The first time i used that wargoal i was also quite surprised to see that i´ve gotten a big purge penalty.

We only had the "Extermination" variant of Undesireable back then. Wich is no longer possible unless you got Xenophobe. Authoritarians will only be able to displace as I heard it last.
We have to see what the penalties for "Cleae Wargoal" under "Displace Only" policy will be.

 

[gerishnakov]

The problem with having an 'evacuate planet' war goal would be if that empire owning the planet had nowhere for those pops to go. You could then suggest they simply be evacuated to any empire with open door policy on refugees, but such empires aren't guaranteed to exist. As has been suggested so far the best workaround for this issue is to use the cede planet wargoal, then deal with the pops left on the planet however best fits your empire.

 

[AndragonLea]

You could simply make that mean that the pops disappear without a trace and the empire that owned the planet previously gets a "refugee crisis" modifier that reduces energy credits to house the influx of pops on their remaining planets.

I don't care if the event disappears 50 pops and there isn't an exact count of all 50 turning up somewhere, I just don't enjoy having to decide between accepting a bunch of pops that are rubbish, genociding them or accepting that some empire just keeps pushing its borders into my dominion. Distasteful all around.

 

[Drakonn]

The problem with having an 'evacuate planet' war goal would be if that empire owning the planet had nowhere for those pops to go. You could then suggest they simply be evacuated to any empire with open door policy on refugees, but such empires aren't guaranteed to exist. As has been suggested so far the best workaround for this issue is to use the cede planet wargoal, then deal with the pops left on the planet however best fits your empire.

This. The AI or player would have to account for pops that are moved to their other planets

 

[Aurtose]

You could simply make that mean that the pops disappear without a trace and the empire that owned the planet previously gets a "refugee crisis" modifier that reduces energy credits to house the influx of pops on their remaining planets.

This with increased pop growth speed on affected planets and maybe a cheap, fast colony ship for each planet that had a reassembled ship shelter too. Would represent the fact that there are more pops than there is space for them and that there were ships used to move them.

 

[AndragonLea]

Ohhh, that's a good idea. Spawn the right number of colony ships and have the previous colony owner deal with it. If they don't want the pops, fine, just murder them yourself. ^^

 

[Almond_Brown]

I read the OP as him wanting to be able to Plant his empire flag on Planets that lay outside his current territorial boundary and how dare an other empire colonize any planet he may want in the future...

Go to War or put up a Outpost... Them is your options. What you do with any Pop on any conquered planet is up to you and any penalty incurred is all on how you handled the aftermath...

Or I simply interpreted the OP incorrectly...

 

[CuddlyKitten]

Ideally all displaced pops go into a "refugee pool" and from there only decline very slowly over time (like with neutering).

So that people that do accept them would have a stable input over time. It would make sense for them to go into some kind of migrant fleet, or live in refugee camps etc not really counting as pops because they can't vote/work and they live a subsistence lifestyle.

But if the parent empire get's a new world the pops will start relocating in (naturally only one at a time) until the planet is full.

 

[melkor88]

There could be an option to allow pops to evacuate or purge them.

 

[Drowe]

I think an abandon planet war goal or diplomatic action (like xenophobe FE can do) would be a good idea. Occasionally I may only want another empire not to have a certain planet, but don't actually want it myself. Doing it through diplomacy, it might make sense for it to have an influence cost, maybe the sum of your influence cost would be for colonizing and however much it cost the current owner to colonise the planet. That influence goes to the current owner of the planet, if he accepts. He should also get a colony ship out of it.

Another thing to consider could be claiming a system outside of your borders without building a frontier outpost. It could just be a scaled down version of a frontier outpost, that doesn't provide border extrusion, and is a lot cheaper to maintain.