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Agenor

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And because industrial score measures nothing of the kind, it actually measures output. Basically Britain (i.e. the British Isles) doesn't have that big a population or that many factories, even in late game. Britain's score rises astronomically as the Indian pops begin to split in the course of the game and fill up those huge RGOs.

In reality, Britian was nowhere near the top by 1940 - probably in fourth place behind the US, Germany and Russia. Even in 1914 it's not clear it was the top country in terms of military ability and industrial capacity, at best second to the US and possibly running level with Germany?

Perhaps the game needs to make industrial score reflect industrialization a bit better. As things stand, I reckon if China could just expand its RGOs, its industrial score would rise hugely in the course of the game.
 

RELee

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But you're leaving out prestige. Even today, Britain still retains a bit of left-over prestige from the olden days. You can't simply discount prestige.

Just my opinion. :)
 

OHgamer

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Of course, one could always play VIP and have India in partnership, but not under the direct day-to-day administration of London, which in many ways was exactly the relationship between London and the Raj in Calcutta. Keep in mind that Indian tax money did not go direct to London, but stayed in Calcutta, India had its own legal system and finance system, with its own separate currency, and the Army of India was raised and paid for (if not directed) with Indian, not British resources. Economic policy was also an Indian competency, and while in general the British viceroys were expected to direct policy to benefit British industry and commerce, on occasion nasty disagreements over tariff policy would break out between London and Calcutta, and after 1900 in particular Calcutta did begin to have more freedom to work with tariffs to try and help Indian economic development, in spite of the furore such actions created within British business circles.

The result, usually, in VIP is GER and USA duelling for top spot by 1935 (depending on how the prestige bonuses fall later in game) with Britian 3rd or 4th depending on whether or not Russia holds together, with Japan, France, Italy and some other power of among Spain, Austria, Netherlands or, if it forms, Scandinavia, forming the top 8.

The nation the human plays though can of course affect these final results immensely, but in a relatively hands-off game, with generally historical choices made, this is how the mod generally runs.
 

Agenor

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Yes, I agree. It had much more prestige than Germany or the US in 1914. But in 1940?

Also, I should have checked Vicki Wiki first, because apparently only the RGO output in the same continent counts towards industrial score. This means that Indian output doesn't count. (Moral of story: always check facts before starting thread. :eek:o )

Two things. First, it turns out Britian has far more pops in factories than I do (I'm playing as Austria). Britain has 431 pops in factories, I have 289. Britiain has an ind. score of 6658, I have 4249. Also, many of my pops are not national culture, so produce less, so this would account for much of the disparity.

Now, here's a curious thing. Indian output does seem to matter, to some extent. If I give ten Indian provinces to Portugal, which has no debt, Portuguese ind. score rises from 127 to 177. Why? And UK score falls, but only about 20 points. So output of RGOs on other continents does matter?
 

Agenor

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OHgamer said:
The result, usually, in VIP is GER and USA duelling for top spot by 1935 (depending on how the prestige bonuses fall later in game) with Britian 3rd or 4th depending on whether or not Russia holds together, with Japan, France, Italy and some other power of among Spain, Austria, Netherlands or, if it forms, Scandinavia, forming the top 8.

I really must get VIP, but it takes ages to download with my old dial-up modem.
 

OHgamer

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One thing that is an issue with Revolutions that is affecting this is the impact of Life Ratings on Population Growth.

Because the AI will not attack areas where there are large concentration of <30 LR provinces, for Revoltions a "floor" was created for LR at 30, with a few isolated 25 LR provinces, for the world once settled (unclaimed colonies start lower, and once claimed have events fire to raise their LR to 25-30 range).

If you don't have this, AI nations will end up in never ending colonial wars, as for example ENG AI will not attack holdings in the mid-Sahara due to the impact of low LR provinces on military attrition, but the French who own them won't admit defeat because it still has a colonial base. End up with colonial wars that last decades. After first trying, and failing, to fix the problem with boosts to attrition reduction to see if that would make the AI more willing to attack low-LR provinces, the only real alternative was to set a base LR. And while colonial war standoffs still can happen in Revolutions, it is less problematic now than it was in earlier versions.

So what does this have to do with population in Europe?

If the "floor" LR in deepest Africa is 25-30, provinces in Europe should have of course on average higher LRs. This means that Western Europe, Eastern North America, California, SE Australia & New Zealand, and parts of China and Japan are usually 40 LR, with some areas of high development 45-50. Unfortunately, the impact of these higher LR base provinces, combined with inventions that raise POP growth rates further, result in population growth that in the end is too high for Europe.

Interestingly though, while the POP rates are too high in Europe, in the colonial empires the POP rate is still too low. Places like Ceylon or Senegal will still be underpopulated, even when accounting for lack of migration, by 1935 while Britain and France will be overpopulated. This is because another impact for determining POP is ability to meet daily needs, which is tied to income. Since colonial POPs almost always are non-National, their ability to fill needs is less, so lower POP growth results that is compounded by living in lower LR provinces.

And then there are other factors - having good social reforms, esp health care, also appears to raise POP growth rates from what I can tell. And the more I test, the more I'm convinced that there is a difference between civilized and uncivilized, all other things being equal.

So what is the solution? If you cut the base growth rates, you risk making colonial areas have negative POP growth, when in fact from the start they should have positive POP growth (test this with France - put the beginning POP growth rate and colonies like the West Indies will have slightly negative POP growth, even while the mainland French provinces will have lower, but still positive, POP growth.)

One thing I am testing with VIP for a future release is to model the impact of what demographers call the Demographic Transition. Population growth rates in the industrialized West rose (except in France) so that there was very high population growth - ENG and GER in particular. After 1900 there was a shift, as the change from an agricultural to industrial society led to rapid declines in birthrates, so that countries like ENG and GER began to have pop growth rates more like France in the 19th C with slow, moderate population growth. In VIP what I'm testing is having the event take away the POP growth bonuses gained from earlier inventions, plus a bit more to balance out for the impact of better health care reforms and the like.

But this isn't an optimal solution, because while Europe experienced this transition, it's colonial holdings did not, and in fact population growth in colonial areas was very strong and rising after 1900, not moving toward steady-state. So there are problems with trying to model the demographic transition for a nation as a whole if that nation has a colonial empire.

In the end, Victoria is not a historical simulator, and it will be almost impossible to get populations to be exactly as they historically were. In general, the balance of populations for 1836 is quite close to correct for most areas, so that while the overall numbers by the end may be off, the general balance between the major nations/empires should still be somewhat close.

This is definitely one of the issues I'm working on to try and improve for the future. The biggest problem is that there are several factors combinig to make finding an easy balance difficult. And in the end, the difference between an LR 30 province and an LR 40 province turn out to be quite significant in terms of their impact on POP growth.
 

EvilSanta

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In reality, Britian was nowhere near the top by 1940 - probably in fourth place behind the US, Germany and Russia.

:wacko:

Germany didn't even exist in 1840!

There is a reason the game is called "Victoria"
 

RELee

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Agenor said:
Yes, I agree. It had much more prestige than Germany or the US in 1914. But in 1940?
Well, I would have to say yes even to 1940. One of Hitler's primary concerns in 1940 was avoiding war with Britain. His admiration of the British people was surpassed only by his admiration of the German people. By the same token, his contempt of the Americans was surpassed only by his contempt of the Slavic and Jew, as he did not even perceive America to be a threat.

Only two non-American notables in leap into my mind who are on record in 1940 as recognizing the potential of America in 1940, Churchill and Yamamoto. From my readings, Churchill came to admire the Americans because he had American kin and because of his study of the American Civil War. Yamamoto, I believe, studied at USC or UCLA for a time and came to admire and respect Americans while studying in the country.

While I will agree that in reality, the actual "ranking" of Britain was considerably down in 1940 and by the end of that year Germany really had the old Empire on the ropes, Britain's prestige, or how the world perceived her importance in world affairs, was just as high as it ever was.
 

robou

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but why are you talking about 1940? the game dosent simulate 1940, and if you are playing on, if WW1 or anything like it dosent happen then of course the world is going to be different! Prestige wise i must agree with Lee.
 

RELee

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I believe his point is that by 1936 (only 4 years), he doesn't believe that the ranking of the UK should be higher than the others. He was thinking that simply by having India, the UK score was over-inflated.

Something like that.

And I agree with what he says, but he totally leaves out the pie piece of ranking that we call prestige.

Be careful encouraging me. I can become insufferable. :D
 

ComradeOm

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OHgamer said:
The result, usually, in VIP is GER and USA duelling for top spot by 1935 (depending on how the prestige bonuses fall later in game) with Britian 3rd or 4th depending on whether or not Russia holds together, with Japan, France, Italy and some other power of among Spain, Austria, Netherlands or, if it forms, Scandinavia, forming the top 8.
In fairness that is how my games typically turn out. Germany and the US surpass Britain's industrial score a few decades later than usual but it does occur.

I find that the major problem with Britain's ranking is the hugely inflated military score accrued by maintaining its large military.

RELee said:
Only two non-American notables in leap into my mind who are on record in 1940 as recognizing the potential of America in 1940, Churchill and Yamamoto.
Huh? By 1940 the US was almost universally recognised as a major world power... perhaps the most powerful of all. The only ones who failed to subscribe to this were idiots like Hitler who based their analysis on supposed racial inferiority.

Similarly, Britain's prestige had taken a massive knock during WWI. This was a conflict that had revealed what most had suspected prior to the war - that Germany was, by some distance, Europe's predominant Power. Both Britain and France were visibly on the slide, relatively speaking, from the late 19th C and WWI only confirmed this. It was only the self-imposed isolation of the US, and to a lesser degree the Soviet Union, that allowed Britain to take the lead in diplomatic affairs following the war.

EvilSanta said:
Germany didn't even exist in 1840!
But it did in 1940 ;)
 

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EvilSanta said:
:wacko:

Germany didn't even exist in 1840!

There is a reason the game is called "Victoria"
I'm pretty sure he means 1936.
 

noddysseus

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No.

uk_irelands_slave1.jpg


uk_irelands_slave2.jpg
 

Agenor

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RELee said:
.And I agree with what he says, but he totally leaves out the pie piece of ranking that we call prestige.

The reason for Britian's unsurpassable lead in my game isn't just prestige - it's the massive industrial score - about 7800 by 1918. I have about 5700 (playing as Austria), having stuck almost everyone I can into factories.

I started this thread trying to figure out where this score comes from. I thought it was India, but it looks like it's population growth. London has a population of 22 million by 1914, with a growth factor of 0.025. In Vienna, which has a much lower population, the growth factor is 0.015. Neither economy has health care. London's growth rate, coupled with the high starting population, gives the UK a huge advantage, probably allowing an extra doubling of population in the course of 100 years. So I think Ohgamer is right when he says that the problem is related to population growth.
 
Jan 10, 2007
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This is entirely historical. The British Empire was the most powerful entity on Earth for the game's entire time-frame. Although eventually surpassed in core industrial strength by the United States, Imperial resources and prestige in concert with a massive professional military ensure its dominance well past the end of Victoria.
 

Markusw7

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Also you shouldn't really be looking at the situation in our world in 1940 when in victoria there most likely wasn't a world war which weakened the British empire quite a bit.
 

Dysken

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Goraja said:
This is entirely historical. The British Empire was the most powerful entity on Earth for the game's entire time-frame. Although eventually surpassed in core industrial strength by the United States, Imperial resources and prestige in concert with a massive professional military ensure its dominance well past the end of Victoria.
I believe Germany surpassed Britain in industrial strenght aswell thereby upsetting the balace of power in Europe.
 

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Sep 25, 2007
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Dysken said:
I believe Germany surpassed Britain in industrial strenght aswell thereby upsetting the balace of power in Europe.

I think that the UK had a greater industrial strength than Germany. It produced more ships than Germany in the pre WWI naval arms race. And that was no small deal - you need some major industrial power and logistics to do that.