Should battle scenarios be re-implemented into the game? They were nice in older games...

[Will Steel]

I was originally going to submit this to suggestions subforum, but I thought I should first ask what the community thinks of this.

There was one feature I really miss from the older HoI games I've seen - the Battle Scenario mode.

For those of you who didn't know about this - The battle scenario modes focused the game on one particular battle, theater or war. They were not full campaign games, just particular battles and missions that you could play and enjoy. Often these could become very complex, or simply played for quick fun, depending on the scenario and the player choice.

- The scenarios had a limited map. They focused on the region of the battle/war and not the whole world. It was a miniature of the main world map.

- The rest of the world was blacked out and you could only see and move within the scenario region.

- The scenario would pit two or more nations/powers against each other. Each would have a preset roster of commanders available, so you had to be careful.

- You started with pre-made armies, historically accurate order of battle. You couldn't recruit more (unless allowed), but gain troops and ships through events which gave you reinforcements and such, I recall.

- The objectives were also unique. Instead of conquering an entire nation like in main campaign, your objectives would be things like "capture this town" or "hold and keep this city in place" and so on.

- Victory happened as you won the battle/war of the scenario. In fact there were multiple victory types in Darkest Hour scenarios.

Darkest Hour had 1939 Fall Weiss scenario which put Germany, Poland, Soviet Union and Slovakia on the map...and the 1904 Russo-Japanese War. HoI3 had 1942 Fall Blau (you know, Stalingrad and all) as well as naval-warfare oriented Pacific theater between USA and Japan.

Mods also had very fun scenarios, for example Kaiserreich mod gave us Sino-German war as well as Russo-Japanese war (in which Russia reconquers its eastern lands around 1940).

To give you an idea, this is how it looked like:

Spoiler: Images

Fall Blau scenario:

From a mod focusing on D-Day:

Something from a mod focusing on Winter War I guess:

Fall Weiss from Darkest Hour. All nations are playable, with accurate OOB.

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Now, to put it into perspective.

The other day, I was playing a game called Ultimate General: Civil War. That game gives you premade armies (you can build your own too if you wish), and place you in a campaign set in 1860s America. Those battles had lots of things for objectives...and it reminded me heavily of HoI battle scenarios.

Then I was playing the Kaiserreich mod as United States, and then it hit me - HoI4 could really do well with a scenario mode. It could create a lot of potential for historical battles and even more so for mods.

For example, modders could make:

- 2nd American Civil War of the Kaiserreich (really wishing to play this one)
- Alt history wars of all kind, without having to develop a full global mod
- Battles of the Great War/WW1, every theater
- Battle operation set in a modern-day scenario (if a mod allows it), for example in the Middle East or South America
- Simple hypothetical "what-if" battles that could've taken place in history but didn't for some reason
- Battle of the Hoover Dam in Fallout OWB mod, alongside NCR-Brotherhood-Enclave War and Caesar's Legion conquests and such.
- You remember Doomsday scenarios from Hoi2? They can be recreated too.

Or Paradox could include historical vanilla scenarios, adding a bunch more through patches or DLCs. Or allow modders to make historical scenarios instead. Things like;

- Sino Japanese war
- Operation Barbarossa scenario
- Operation Sealion (air-warfare focused) between Germany and Britain
- Late-game 1944-45 scenario set around a collapsing Germany with Allies invading from all sides while Germany still has an army to fight with.
- Much of Pacific Theater where navies of various nations like Japan, United States and Britain duke it out on the high seas and the islands
- D-Day landings and subsequent war in France
- Winter War
- A far more detailed Spanish Civil War
- Africa Campaign, Rommel VS British and all that.
- German invasion of Benelux and France, which was a gamble that could go both ways
- 1943 Eastern Front campaigns (including battle of Kursk), which saw the bloodiest fighting in the war in the aftermath of Stalingrad.
- Campaigns from older games, like invasion of Poland or Stalingrad campaign and so on.

Only that this time Paradox could improve it much further. For example, ability to create unique limited focus trees for nations in the scenario, or perhaps even allow modders to create unique maps for them to take place rather than use main campaign map. The scripting UI could be put to use for this (for example, allowing players to earn political favour points and use them to ask for reinforcements).

All in all, scenarios have a benefit - you can try out quick battles for fun if in a hurry, or play a single battle with extreme detail like a true corps/army general. And it allows people with modding skills to probably test out units and stats, terrain modification and such.

So what do you guys think of this? I think I'll post it to the suggestions if this is a viable thing to be in the game.

 

[Tempestra]

I believe Steam telemetry showed that battle scenarios,like non-1936 start dates, were very unpopular, and the amount of work required to create/maintain them was not proportionate to the number of players using them.

 

[Will Steel]

I believe Steam telemetry showed that battle scenarios,like non-1936 start dates, were very unpopular, and the amount of work required to create/maintain them was not proportionate to the number of players using them.

Then they could at least allow them for modders, so modders can create all the scenarios to play with.

 

[--Yigito123--]

Then they could at least allow them for modders, so modders can create all the scenarios to play with.

I believe modders have plenty of ways to do what you're asking (I mean, maps that change the entire map exist, this can't be harder). The fact that no one so far has done a mod like this should tell you how popular they were among the community.

 

[Shaka of Carthage]

I think this should be left for modders. Problem I see is the amount of work that would have to be done for this "limited" campaign.

 

[Will Steel]

I believe modders have plenty of ways to do what you're asking (I mean, maps that change the entire map exist, this can't be harder). The fact that no one so far has done a mod like this should tell you how popular they were among the community.

And they are full campaigns, not limited ones with restricted maps that I was talking about.

 

[Regaccio]

I think if nothing else, "scenario packs" like these could be a cool thing for PDS to sell once Focus Trees are all complete. Maybe as a side thing like Stellaris's Story Packs. Maybe "Battles of the Eastern Front" with Case Blue, Battle of Stalingrad, the Battle of Kursk, maybe even a Battle of Berlin scenario where you win by holding out as the Germans for long enough without totally collapsing. A D-Day scenario would be awesome. Maybe an "Operation Unthinkable" pack where the west fights with the USSR and whoever pushes to the other side of Central Europe wins. This kind of thing could be a cool way to let players challenge themselves with historical battles or specific operations that just don't tend to happen in the base game.

 

[Fulmen]

Then they could at least allow them for modders, so modders can create all the scenarios to play with.

Already possible; for example there's already a mod that focuses solely on the Second Sino-Japanese War, removing most of the map.

 

[Ironside121]

Already possible; for example there's already a mod that focuses solely on the Second Sino-Japanese War, removing most of the map.

On top of this there's also a mod that focuses only on the Eastern Front.

 

[qqmagnuz]

I really like these scenarios, but I think they would be most appropriate for multiplayer games. To have a preset that is balanced.

 

[halvorni]

But looking at the images I do miss the Army Corps...

 

[Nimitz12345]

I believe Steam telemetry showed that battle scenarios,like non-1936 start dates, were very unpopular, and the amount of work required to create/maintain them was not proportionate to the number of players using them.

Is it though?
Because Endsieg is a pretty popular mod and a lot of people, including me would love to see a proper operation unthinkable/cold war scenario.

 

[James Hale]

Only a tiny % of players would use these, and as it is only a tiny % of people use the 1939 scenario. I am sure that someone said that future Paradox games will probably only have one scenario because people generally only play the first one in any game - I'll need to find the source for this, though.

 

[Tempestra]

Is it though?
Because Endsieg is a pretty popular mod

What % of the player base plays Endsieg, do you think?

and a lot of people, including me would love to see a proper operation unthinkable/cold war scenario.

Got a sort for "a lot"?

 

[Teodosio7]

I believe Steam telemetry showed that battle scenarios,like non-1936 start dates, were very unpopular, and the amount of work required to create/maintain them was not proportionate to the number of players using them.

Mini scenarios have nothing to do with different start dates. For start, scenarios use a limited map. Please read the OP and look at the images there.

I would love to have scenarios back in the game. Speaking about telemetry, the Devs could make just a couple and see how they go.

 

[hkrommel]

The fact that no one so far has done a mod like this should tell you how popular they were among the community.

There are multiple mods doing this, so maybe poke around a bit before making grandiose assessments about the community.

Because Endsieg is a pretty popular mod

It has a lot of subscribers (including myself) but probably not a lot of people playing on a regular basis. Whoever is developing that took the ill-advised approach of having something like 6 start dates to develop simultaneously, including WWI start dates, which makes no sense. Pick a start date, develop it, move on. The mod is horribly unpolished and buggy, not worth the time to play at all.

 

[GsusNSV]

I would love to have scenarios back in the game. Speaking about telemetry, the Devs could make just a couple and see how they go.

They did in HoI3

The only thing I can promise is no battle scenarios. it was worth a try but it turns out HOI3 wasnt that much fun when it wasn't a whole campaign and all aspects of the game available. So no, I definitely don't want to do battle scenarios for hoi4.

EDIT: They *were* fun. but only once or twice at best. They took a lot of development time to do which imo can be better spent adding features that make the grand campaign more interesting, or say give you new whole campaigns rather than a small scenario.

yeah, as we learned many scenarios is much much too hard for a small team like us to be able to keep up to date. We are focusing on fewer and better balanced this time

 

[Will Steel]

I guess mod support for it is also out of question then? Sure, it needs not to be developed by Paradox, but how about modders?

Already possible; for example there's already a mod that focuses solely on the Second Sino-Japanese War, removing most of the map.

No it did not restrict the map camera, it seemingly just made everything outside of east/south/southeast Asia into a interactive wasteland.

 

[anbory]

it is only a tiny % of people use the 1939 scenario

Because everyone besides WWII big daddies are not meant to be played. That's why it left too few room for make a good playthrough in the 1939.

Anyway, the problem with detailed scenario is that they will use the different map than vanilla one. And I don't exactly know if the engine is designed to have a several maps at the same time. I suppose it doesn't. So, you can't just technically made a second map, without deleting the first and determining the second. You need to redesign the engine itself to be able to do this.

 

[Fulmen]

No it did not restrict the map camera, it seemingly just made everything outside of east/south/southeast Asia into a interactive wasteland.

That's what I meant. Yes, I'm well aware, having started PDX games with HoI2 back in 2006, that the battle scenarios there restricted the rest of the map. A trivial difference.