Should Armies get a Planning in Advance Bonus

[Kikaider]

This idea has some merit IMHO. The devil is in the details, as usual.

/Edit: Actually, thinking about it a bit more, the current abstraction isn't necessary as bad as one may think. Armies do after all have contingency plans concerning everything from marching to the next town to invading Jupiter. Many tasks you set armies to do, particularly defensive tasks, would probably just be implementing already existing lower-than-you-level contingency plans. The major issue is really massive operations like Overlord, or Barbarossa.

A thought... how about the bonus scales between the issuing of the order and the execution date. Further more, the higher level you issue the order (Army Group vs. Army Corps) the better the bonus (scale) is. It would give incentive to issue higher level orders to army groups, with the option of micro-ing if desired. Sure go ahead and move every division if you want, if you think you can micro better than the AI without a 5% combat bonus

Would also simuluate Hitler's micro-ing screwing over the Wehrmacht and preventing them from fighting as effeciently

 

[Luka]

There is a simple solution to this all; and that is an order delay. It takes time to prepare, send and then prepare orders for execution. The bigger the plan, the longer it takes, the better prepared, the longer it takes. It should be so that orders given have a delay before being executed; with different delays for different orders and maybe even different options in giving them (hastily prepared, well prepared, etc. )

That is such an obvious and good idea.

 

[Myth]

A thought... how about the bonus scales between the issuing of the order and the execution date. Further more, the higher level you issue the order (Army Group vs. Army Corps) the better the bonus (scale) is. It would give incentive to issue higher level orders to army groups, with the option of micro-ing if desired. Sure go ahead and move every division if you want, if you think you can micro better than the AI without a 5% combat bonus

Would also simuluate Hitler's micro-ing screwing over the Wehrmacht and preventing them from fighting as effeciently

That's certainly an interesting thought. Though, rather than a bonus for issuing commands to higher levels, how about a penalty for issuing commands to lower levels? Not an arbitrary penalty, but rather the lower the units you micromanage, the less their commanders' skills matter. So if you micro divisions, it doesn't matter whether you've got brilliant skill 7 or 8 guys at army group, army and corps levels because you're effectively bypassing them. So your skill 2 divisional commander won't benefit from their experience.

 

[Thomas Kenobi]

I think some very good points have been made, by both sides of the argument in this thread. Imho, it all comes down to the fact that this is a game and, as such, it is meant to provide enjoyment above all. Now personally, there have been several times, where I wished for the ability to plan my offensives, enter them into the game and have them play out automatically for the few first days. However, the reality is that those moments are quite rare. Most of the time, the units in HoI are controlled in the same way one would control a unit in an RTS: "you... go... there... attack this... and so on".

The idea of order delay does indeed have some merit, but it has the risk of bogging gameplay down by far too much. It also has an additional problem. The espionage system in HoI3, as far as I can tell, can inform you what your opponents are doing now, but not what they'll be doing tomorrow (I mean directly as in US Naval Intelligence decoding the Japanese plan to attack Midway, not indirectly as in seeing an enemy concentration of forces and expecting an attack in that area). Therefore you have no way to, say, move reinforcements towards a suspected enemy attack route. You need to be able to act at the spur of the moment, in order to react to what the AI is doing.

Personally, I am in favour of including the ability to plan major operations, in more detail than currently possible. However, I mean this as a helper tool to assist the player. Not as something that would entail penalties or bonuses in the game mechanics.

 

[Myth]

The idea of order delay does indeed have some merit, but it has the risk of bogging gameplay down by far too much. It also has an additional problem. The espionage system in HoI3, as far as I can tell, can inform you what your opponents are doing now, but not what they'll be doing tomorrow

This is true, but is a problem with intelligence generally. Intelligence is much easier at measuring capabilities rather than intentions. Intelligence breakthroughs like Midway are exceedingly rare. So this isn't necessary an argument against rather than an important strategic observation that must be kept in mind generally.

 

[Kikaider]

That's certainly an interesting thought. Though, rather than a bonus for issuing commands to higher levels, how about a penalty for issuing commands to lower levels? Not an arbitrary penalty, but rather the lower the units you micromanage, the less their commanders' skills matter. So if you micro divisions, it doesn't matter whether you've got brilliant skill 7 or 8 guys at army group, army and corps levels because you're effectively bypassing them. So your skill 2 divisional commander won't benefit from their experience.

I definitely like that suggestion, and its probably easier to implement than my original scaling-bonus. All you have to do is 'shut-off' trickle-down bonus
It adds gameplay value by forcing player choice (+)
and it adds historical relavence (+)

The only downside is that even though you are micro-ing the operational level (especially on the offense), and the bonus's should be turned off then, I would think in 'defensive' combat the bonus's should be mitigated, but maybe not entirely removed. I say this because (logically) defensive fights were too rapid and the commander tended to have more autonomy in the individual fight (besides hold orders, but that would be eliminating 'support defense and reserve' commands). Maybe different amounts of 'bonus reduction' depending on the order/combat?

 

[Myth]

I definitely like that suggestion, and its probably easier to implement than my original scaling-bonus. All you have to do is 'shut-off' trickle-down bonus
It adds gameplay value by forcing player choice (+)
and it adds historical relavence (+)

The only downside is that even though you are micro-ing the operational level (especially on the offense), and the bonus's should be turned off then, I would think in 'defensive' combat the bonus's should be mitigated, but maybe not entirely removed. I say this because (logically) defensive fights were too rapid and the commander tended to have more autonomy in the individual fight (besides hold orders, but that would be eliminating 'support defense and reserve' commands). Maybe different amounts of 'bonus reduction' depending on the order/combat?

Yeah, a penalty makes less sense for defensive combat so it could be lessened or even removed altogether. Aportioning penalties to missions would probably be the best compromise, certainly. Things like support defense/support attack/reserves are basically ordering contingency plans anyway, so if you order a division to support province x the commander'd obviously refer to his commanders in a way he wouldn't if you were micromanaging him on a blitz offensive.

 

[Thomas Kenobi]

That's certainly an interesting thought. Though, rather than a bonus for issuing commands to higher levels, how about a penalty for issuing commands to lower levels? Not an arbitrary penalty, but rather the lower the units you micromanage, the less their commanders' skills matter. So if you micro divisions, it doesn't matter whether you've got brilliant skill 7 or 8 guys at army group, army and corps levels because you're effectively bypassing them. So your skill 2 divisional commander won't benefit from their experience.

That would deny one the ability to choose the level of micro that is appropriate for them. If giving detailed commands would entail penalties then the players would be reluctant to do it. In a way, I feel that this would detract from the players' choices, without adding any gameplay value to the game.

PS: Granted Midway style breakthroughs, were rather rare (though not terribly with the breaking of the enigma and all). However, I stand by the point that one wouldn't one to plan everything ahead of time and forcing the player to do so would be nothing but tedious. Personally, I have, in a single game, found myself in both sides, when it comes to planning. I have given orders with just five minutes of thought and I have planned entire operations on paper before carrying them out. I think what's important here is choice.

 

[Luka]

@Thomas Kenobi: They can just do what the Airbourne Assualt folks do and have an option to toggle order delay on/off.

 

[Myth]

That would deny one the ability to choose the level of micro that is appropriate for them. If giving detailed commands would entail penalties then the players would be reluctant to do it. In a way, I feel that this would detract from the players' choices, without adding any gameplay value to the game.

This is a potential problem, yes. Not entirely sure how to solve it. Link it with difficulty, and give it a moddable entry in difficulty.csv? Anything normal difficulty and below no penalty, but anything above there is one?

PS: Granted Midway style breakthroughs, were rather rare (though not terribly with the breaking of the enigma and all). However, I stand by the point that one wouldn't one to plan everything ahead of time and forcing the player to do so would be nothing but tedious. Personally, I have, in a single game, found myself in both sides, when it comes to planning. I have given orders with just five minutes of thought and I have planned entire operations on paper before carrying them out. I think what's important here is choice.

Oh no, I don't want to plan everything out ahead of time either. I was just saying.

 

[dsteve3]

Pressing the offensive supply button instantly teleports thousands of supplies straight from the capital to each individual division. If that button only increased the rate of supply for a period of time, that would compensate for the planning stages of the offensive.

Maybe the new supply system will take this into consideration.

Thats not all of the offensive planning, but its a sizable chunk. Like Myth points out, moving the troops to the right position is the lion's share of preparing for the offensive. Hope you invest in the electronic surveillance techs, sounds like they'll be useful!

 

[Luka]

Myth, perhaps the order delay should be based upon the size of the formation you're giving the order to? You give an order to a entire front, you'd expect it to take a lot longer to execute than an order given to a single division.

 

[Myth]

Myth, perhaps the order delay should be based upon the size of the formation you're giving the order to? You give an order to a entire front, you'd expect it to take a lot longer to execute than an order given to a single division.

This is true. Hey, that could be the trade-off! Commanding at lower echelons means smaller (all the way down to negligible) delay, but also less input (ie, less impact of skill) from the higher levels of command.

 

[Kikaider]

This is true. Hey, that could be the trade-off! Commanding at lower echelons means smaller (all the way down to negligible) delay, but also less input (ie, less impact of skill) from the higher levels of command.

BRILLIANT!
Hurray compromise
I really hope the dev's followed this thread, because I think this is one of the most lacking things of any strategic game, so would definitely add to the immerision!

 

[unmerged(110317)]

Myth great to see you are on our side now

Its true forcing the player to plan every Operation with forced delays will get irritating. Thus the choice to do both. But obviously with the incentive of planning an offensive.
What the bonus should be I dont know, but defenately an incentive to do so.

Either you plan the offensive or go radio quite and lauch a slightly disorganised offensive. Which would better simulate Hitlers Battle of the Bulge attack. Sudden attack, enemy has no idea, total surprise.

 

[Myth]

No no, I'm not on your side. I'm against arbitrary penalties. However, we figured out a system that isn't (as) arbitrary

 

[Luka]

This is true. Hey, that could be the trade-off! Commanding at lower echelons means smaller (all the way down to negligible) delay, but also less input (ie, less impact of skill) from the higher levels of command.

Excellent! And another bonus is that to implement this system should be really quite easy for Paradox. If only there were a way to send them suggestions...

 

[dsteve3]

Time of day is crucial to any attack. If there are going to be delays, then time-of-day preference must be preserved. As well, if there are delays, I want it clearly stated when I'm organizing the offensive. Nothing worse than sitting there watching and wondering "why isn't anything happenning?"

I noticed in the HoI2 expansions, they started allowing orders to be given to a division while its busy, but the division can't affect the orders until its grey'ed out time has expired. That sort of solution would be workable. At least I can see whats going on. I don't want this to be a 'mystery effect.'

 

[Myth]

Time of day is crucial to any attack. If there are going to be delays, then time-of-day preference must be preserved. As well, if there are delays, I want it clearly stated when I'm organizing the offensive. Nothing worse than sitting there watching and wondering "why isn't anything happenning?"

I noticed in the HoI2 expansions, they started allowing orders to be given to a division while its busy, but the division can't affect the orders until its grey'ed out time has expired. That sort of solution would be workable. At least I can see whats going on. I don't want this to be a 'mystery effect.'

Of course. Every mission in HoI2 could have its time determined so I see no reason this wouldn't also be possible in HoI3. Also, perhaps having the ability to "rush" your units, at the cost of more org loss while marching, to get them somewhere faster, would be a good idea.

 

[Cavalry Scout]

A few issues.

1. Theres an old military saying "No plan survives first contact". Plan all you want, but your enemy almost without fail doesn't seem to do what you want him to.

2. I thought I, the player, was the one doing the planning? Why would I want the computer to do it for me? Part of the fun of the game is for me to form my own plans. That covers strategic planning.

3. And from a tactical standpoint. When you are on the offensive, the longer you delay an attack almost without fail is much more beneficial to a defender. All the while you getting your plans and prep in order, guess what hes doing too? Thats right, getting his plans and prep in order for your big attack.

Its abstracted in the game and requires no further modification.