Should an invasion of the US be very difficult to outright impossible in HOI4?

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Louella

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It might have been possible to compel the USA to accept terms, but it would have required actions that are not within the acceptable scope of Hearts of Iron games.

"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute." - is an important quote to keep in mind when thinking about this kind of thing.
 

YellowGelni

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I disagree, "has not" is the very essence of "could not" with regards to a historical perspective. In my view.

People are always attempting to do everything that can be done, at all times, what actually gets done, is the limit of ones ability, not the limit of their ambition.

Its comforting for people to believe that ambition is greater than ability, collectively, but it is not.

My proof is that no one built a decent anti ship guided missile until the late 50s. And no ship was sunk by one until 1967.

Now offer proof that someone could have designed one and deployed it before those dates.

Now THAT sir would be impossible to prove, and thus I rest my case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will

Check some of this out. Its not directly on topic, but science is trending more towards my view than yours. Id be perfectly happy to be wrong, but we'd need some proof to back that up.

And here is the problem, your first assumption a bad one and your reasoning isn´t right.

I can´t realy proof your assumption beeing wrong because it´s like answering the sentence "This sentence is wrong" with yes or no. But some example which might show it beeing rather bad is "willingly eating your won poo". I don´t know about your physical condition but you propably can do it but you won´t do it. Atleast not until something drastic happens or you have a strange fetish.

If no one has done something it just proofes that no one has done it yet. It doesn´t say anything about the possibility of something happening. It´s a classic case of language interfering with math. Unless using quite some effort proofs don´t work realy well in real life situations.

If you want to proofe building a decent anti ship guided missile before the late 50s you have to:
- define what a decent anti ship guided missile needs to be capable
- you need to find a reason why no such missile can be build

A dumb example how this might look like:
- Definition: To be a decent anti ship guided missile the missile has to be capable of sinking an Essex-Class carrier moving 35 knots or slower in 75% of the cases it hits with an error smaller than +/-5% and has to hit it, if the pilot tires to do so in 90% of the cases with an error smaller than +/-1%. Futher more the pilot can effect the movement of the missile.
- This is impossible before the 1950
- Prove: Sinking an Essex-Class carrier was impossible until god patched realitys phisics in the patch of 7 May 1951 before this patch no ship beeing an Essex-Class carrier yould be sunk. To proofe this wrong you need to show me the patch notes of said patch or the Essex-Class carrier sunk by a missile fitting the demands of the definition of a decent anti ship guided missile.

Using your way of proofe the reult would be even better: No Essex-Class carrier was ever destoryed by a guided missle so even yet it is impossible to do so.


I gues this post won´t convince you either so I hope that atleast either a bad person suffered by my english or someone enjoyed my dumb examples.
 

permanently_afk

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@Krafty
Back from a short dig. I discovered that you have been moving the goalposts on me, and been - again - selling spourious knowledge as fact. Kramer wasn't the hack you depicted him as, among other things. Also a short read of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ship_missile reveals that ASM was a thing during WW2 - so it was more of a lack of effort, rather than a lack of capability.

But to whit: Both Axis and Allies developed and deployed multiple varieties of ASM.
  • On the Allied side:
    • The Bat, deployed 1942, sunk a variety of ships. Damaged or sunk an escort from 37km out. Very impressive and fire&forget capable.
    • AZON, deployed 1944, guided bomb. Deployed against buildings, not shipping, but could-have-been.
  • For the Axis (Germany, that is. The Japanese were too suicide-obsessed for a non-human guidance system)
    • The old standby Fritz-X. 1943-44, sunk the BB Roma, damaged a variety of others. Deployment on D-Day/western front fell on its face because of crushing allied air superiority, not because of bad design as you implied.
    • HS 293, deployed 1943, sunk HMS Bideford and others. Its projected successor the HS 294 would have been an air launched torpedo.
Thats quite a few ASM deployments. This proves that it is possible that given the need, there would have been some sort of air-launched ASM (which there was, unsurpisingly)

Point proven. Don't move the goalposts again!
 

208

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[the USA's] only land borders leading to hostile desert or tundra unable to support troops prepping for invasion

I can assure you that the geography of Canada bordering the USA* consists of neither hostile desert nor tundra.

(*The border between Alaska and the Yukon notwithstanding: Nobody would invade the USA from Canada via Alaska.)
 

hkrommel

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Which is great and all, with your 20mm armed Panzer II up against a Hotchkiss 39 that was entirely immune to your weaponry, including the 37mm door knockers your infantry is toting around, along with their Panzerbu ATRs. Meanwhile the Boyes with the French could kill Pz1s and 2s frontally, and IIIs from the side. If it wasnt for air power, and Germany simply moving around and past French divisions they couldnt beat, the advance would have come to a halt.

You answered your own issue there. Tank-on-tank warfare was largely unimportant in the larger war save for a few select instances, none of which occurred during the Battle of France.

heres nothing a Tiger did well that a Stug couldnt do. Or a Hetzer.

Rotate a turret. Had better range too, and armor, could see more, etc.

The Tiger was absolute garbage.

You do realize that assertion does not an argument make?

Its not ironic, its tragic. They built them to be offensive wundertanks, and them being good at best on defense, is not a strength, its a role they were forced to fit into because they were bad at everything else.

Last time I checked being good at something is a strength, but what do I know (or the dictionary for that matter)?

Also when it comes to captured paperwork, it wasnt Russian, it was German. So when that was released from the archives theres very little bias there. Whereas Halder was mostly going from "memory" and in large part was appeasing his new "captors" to avoid a bad fate at Spandau.

So with regards to the Soviet's assessment of the 8th Airforces campaign we dont just have Soviet analysis, we have GERMAN analysis that was in Soviet hands for 60 years.

The German analysis is METICULOUS. ~80% of allied raid documents were captured by the Soviets.

Theres some great documentaries and books about the last days of Berlin. Because of Hitler, no one destroyed anything until the Soviets were literally inside the suburbs. It only took hours to captured the Reichstag, and most of the German archives. While alot was destroyed, reports call Berlin in its final hours one big trash can fire of floating papers and ash, the Soviets captured a plethora of German archives.

Ok so they lost 20% (that people know of) off the bat. How much was actually archived? Of that, how much was adequately preserved from various forms of deterioration? Of that, how much actually survived until the 2000s? Of that, how much was actually released and not otherwise dealt with by error or on purpose? Of that, how much was actually examined by Western scholars (indeed, how many scholars have claimed to examine it)? Of that, how much has been sufficiently catalogued and analyzed? Of that, how much has been translated and put into a peer-reviewable format? Of that, how much has been peer reviewed? Of that, how much has been published? A hell of a lot less than 80%.

You're arguing an absurd point here and attributing a degree of authoritativeness to documents that neither you nor I nor the historical community has any way of verifying the above things about!
 

Krafty

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The amount of effort it would take to reply to that many things isnt worth it. Besides, this thread has been derailed enough. As well, I dont much like someone who keeps saying im moving goalposts while taking things out of context, and taking every sentence and responding to it individually.

Its clear we're not going to agree. Have a nice day.

http://russianarchives.com/archives/index.html

You can always request copies.
 
Last edited:

permanently_afk

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The amount of effort it would take to reply to that many things isnt worth it. Besides, this thread has been derailed enough. As well, I dont much like someone who keeps saying im moving goalposts while taking things out of context, and taking every sentence and responding to it individually.
Scratch one. You wanted ASM, you got ASM. Stop complaing and admit defeat.
Its clear we're not going to agree. Have a nice day.
Oh, I will.
Do unto others. Ah well.
 

Chengar Qordath

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A stand-off between the eastern and western hemisphere would have been decided with peace, or that failing, a race to the atom bomb, nukes, and aerospace power projection--not naval invasions.

Yeah, I think that's the real bottom line. By the time the Axis could consolidate control over all their new conquests, get their economy fully running, and start really cranking out the insane amount of resources needed for a trans-continental invasion we'd be well into the nuclear age.

I think a Cold War-esque scenario is the most likely outcome. Neither side can manage the task of hitting all the way across the Atlantic without a friendly base on the other side, so the Axis tries to gain influence in Central and South America to gain a base of operations. Meanwhile, the US will be happy to fund all the groups that would be less than wild about living under Axis rule, hoping they eventually collapse under their own weight.
 

Eragon432

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So, In response to the question posed above, I feel that we need to set a few ground rules first, and to try and clarify a few things.
1.) Should it possible? absolutely. From both a game, and real life POV, anything can happen.
2.) Should it be very difficult? well, yes. You are invading a massive nation that has substantial infrastructure and economy, and enough paranoia to be prepared. They were also comparatively less ravaged by the wars attrition, and would have more oomph to bring to the front, so it would be difficult.

With that out of the way, onto some points that I feel may need clarification.
1.) so we can assume that we are talking about if the axis wins the war, as it is doubtful the allies would turn on america.
2.) what lands would be taken to assume a "win" in Europe? can we assume that all of Europe from the uk to poland, and from Scandinavia to south Africa would constitute the axis win? does japan take on India after china? what are the defined borders were working with?
3.) what would be the invasions time frame? would the axis immediately just go for it? or would they have a period of time to replenish, rebuild and renovate? If we can assume a longer time period, then what effect would this have on the US economy? such that, how would their trade be effected if the vast majority of their nearby neighbors are effectively embargoing them? would they still have sufficient funds if they cant trade with many of the major nations?
4.) would they have already dealt with the soviets?

So, imagine/ assume, that the axis is gearing for an invasion. They control europe, and have been using their time to re arm and reasses the situation. I see a few invasion routes they can take.
1.) hit up the fascist states in south america,do them a solid and help them take over the other states. This would give a good southern invasion route, and since they would control africa they can use that to help them move supplies, forcing the US to spread their navy between the pacific and Atlantic coasts, and forcing them to cover both north and south america if they wish to intercept as many fleets as they can. This can gain more potential if they manage to do something like capture the Panama canal, and close it to american shipping. The axis would however run into issues with infrastructure to move a massive army, and the fact that the border there is effectively rather small(in comparison to CA-US) and could lead to a bit of bottlenecking, all the while the axis might not have sufficient airfields to terrain to maneuver tanks and aircraft to counter the US.
2.) Straight assault. The riskiest, as it would be effectively the reverse D-day. I dont think I need to mention more on this, other than it would be a logistical nightmare and a massive expenditure
3.) I would say the most likely choice would be to head on over to Canada. Assuming that the UK has fallen, Canada has lost its 'parent' and has been forced to start trying to regather itself effectively on its own. It is the most likely target for many reasons.
A.) Newfoundland is the closest place to Europe in north america, and was also home to the largest airfield in the world at the Time. Gander airport was built to be an effective refueling station for trans Atlantic flights, and as such would hold significant strategic importance for any nation to hold, as it would allow the holder to move planes and supplies by air to the front.
B.) We also have evidence that the germans were already scouting the island during the war, what with the submarine found off the coast and such(I do believe its in a museum in Ontario now). With its low population, little infrastructure, and minimal military for resistance it would provide an optimal place to stage a north american invasion, especially if the axis has already taken greenland and iceland, so as to remove long and risky trips.
C.) From here, the maritimes could be taken ,and the axis could press westward, allowing them to open a massive front line along the (CA-US) border. This would allow them to press in from the middle of the nation and separate it, or to sweep into the west to relieve the Japanese, and then use that to help them push east.
D.) It doesn't help that much of Canada population, and a significant amount of infrastructure and industry is concentrated along the border.

It is certainly possible that it could have happened. No nation is impregnable or invincible, and even america would eventually fall if the axis could gather their strength against it.
 

amalric de g.

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Neither side can manage the task of hitting all the way across the Atlantic without a friendly base on the other side, so the Axis tries to gain influence in Central and South America to gain a base of operations.

Thats not entirely true, germany was working on the A10, this rocket would be able to fly straight away to San Francisco from germany.

upload_2017-6-12_23-11-37.jpeg
 

Krafty

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hkrommel

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hkrommel

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1.) hit up the fascist states in south america,do them a solid and help them take over the other states. This would give a good southern invasion route, and since they would control africa they can use that to help them move supplies, forcing the US to spread their navy between the pacific and Atlantic coasts, and forcing them to cover both north and south america if they wish to intercept as many fleets as they can. This can gain more potential if they manage to do something like capture the Panama canal, and close it to american shipping. The axis would however run into issues with infrastructure to move a massive army, and the fact that the border there is effectively rather small(in comparison to CA-US) and could lead to a bit of bottlenecking, all the while the axis might not have sufficient airfields to terrain to maneuver tanks and aircraft to counter the US.

The US would invade and occupy those countries before this was even close to being accomplished.

2.) Straight assault. The riskiest, as it would be effectively the reverse D-day. I dont think I need to mention more on this, other than it would be a logistical nightmare and a massive expenditure

Straight up impossible without a (huge) base close by, see above.

3.) I would say the most likely choice would be to head on over to Canada. Assuming that the UK has fallen, Canada has lost its 'parent' and has been forced to start trying to regather itself effectively on its own. It is the most likely target for many reasons.

How could they possibly land/supply sufficient forces for that to become anything other than an easy encirclement by the US? It's not like the US Army is going to sit by, let alone the Navy.

A.) Newfoundland is the closest place to Europe in north america, and was also home to the largest airfield in the world at the Time. Gander airport was built to be an effective refueling station for trans Atlantic flights, and as such would hold significant strategic importance for any nation to hold, as it would allow the holder to move planes and supplies by air to the front.

If taken by the Germany the US Marines would pay them a visit within a week, and they would have the crap bombed out of them within hours.

B.) We also have evidence that the germans were already scouting the island during the war, what with the submarine found off the coast and such(I do believe its in a museum in Ontario now). With its low population, little infrastructure, and minimal military for resistance it would provide an optimal place to stage a north american invasion, especially if the axis has already taken greenland and iceland, so as to remove long and risky trips.

If the US/Canada have given up on landing in Europe it's incredibly naiive to assume "minimal" resistance anywhere. It's not like you can hide an invasion fleet in the age of RADAR! Also using Greenland as part of a logistical pipeline for even a small invasion force is absurd.

C.) From here, the maritimes could be taken ,and the axis could press westward, allowing them to open a massive front line along the (CA-US) border. This would allow them to press in from the middle of the nation and separate it, or to sweep into the west to relieve the Japanese, and then use that to help them push east.

So much is absurd about this. First, the Axis would be outnumbered at every stage of this operation, so wide fronts hurt them rather than help them. Second, does the US navy not exist? Third, do US forces not occupy these islands you have Germans waltzing into? Fourth, you're ignoring a plethora of terrain barriers to advancing (the Rocky mountains, for example) larger than the Urals. Fifth, nobody is going to be "sweeping" anywhere. You're assuming the Axis advances with ease.

D.) It doesn't help that much of Canada population, and a significant amount of infrastructure and industry is concentrated along the border.

They have to reach the border first, which isn't possible.

It is certainly possible that it could have happened. No nation is impregnable or invincible, and even america would eventually fall if the axis could gather their strength against it.

Just no. All your scenarios assume that the US Navy consists of rowboats, the Army is reduced to Napoleonic infantry with muskets, and the Air Corps is using zeppelins and hot air balloons.
 

Chengar Qordath

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They also were building an Amerika Bomber, a Die Glocke, and were in league with aliens. :rolleyes:

Not to mention that a few non-nuclear rockets wouldn't be good for much more than a little bit of token damage anyway. It's a far, far, far cry from managing an actual invasion.
 

Alliegorical

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I doubt the US would have much appetite for war in a scenario where it is pitted against the new world order. Assuming that the only members of the Allies left are US, Canada, AUS/NZ and India. Germany winning Barbarossa too. It would be more likely a peace of some kind would be sought.

Alas this is a function non-existent in the game. The whole white peace or total war makes micro-wars in the game stupid. Ethiopia kicking Italy out for example unless I'm mistaken would lead to endless war until Italy lose to the allies, unless Ethiopia somehow take them out?

After entering the war, the US loudly and often proclaimed that they'd never stop fighting until victory. It would really be in their interests to make good on that promise, because the longer the Axis controls all of Eurasia, the more powerful they'll grow in relation to the Americas; a peace with the Axis would just be an invitation to lose WW3. If Germany somehow managed to occupy Britain in 1942 or later, the US would probably have stopped at nothing to liberate it. They were prepared to take an estimated 250,000 casualties just to invade Japan. How much more blood would they have been willing to lose when the stakes are so much higher?

 

War_lord

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Every country in a war says that. The problem is that the United States was a Democracy, and one that has always had some degree of isolationist sentiments. They were prepared to take 250,000 casualties to finish a war they had won, that's not the same as repeatedly hurling your army at the fortifications of a locked down Europe (for this scenario to work at all, we have to assume Soviet collapse.) and losing many times that number in the name of... what? Eventually people are going to get sick of total mobilization, the bottom falls out of the economy, and anti-war and isolationist sentiments become harder for the central government to suppress.

The America position, between two great seas and with no real opponent to the North and South is both a blessing and curse. It's a blessing because it creates a natural fortress, it's a curse because sitting in a fortress tends to gestate a defense mindset. It's easy to maintain jingoism when your only experience of war is a string of easy victories. There's more to winning a modern war then just simple production.
 

Alex_brunius

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So when you look at the production capabilities, the resources, the manpower, of the allies and communists, against the Axis, it becomes clear that theres no scenario where any rational actor changed the course of events.

And thats my position.

I just wanted to point out that between Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin and the Gang of racist jingoists that in practice were running Japans foreign policy there were very few rational actors in charge of either the Axis or the Communists before or during WW2.

Quite the opposite my position is that IF there had been rational actors in charge of most of the Axis then WW2 would never have happened, or at least not anything close to a WW2 we would recognize.

Rational Axis actors might even have been able to achieve the kind of Bismarck level of political maneuvering that would have been able to divide and conquer their way up to a position where they combined could threaten an isolationist USA with invasion within a few decades giving us a very different kind of cold war.
 
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