Should an invasion of the US be very difficult to outright impossible in HOI4?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Krafty

Lt. General
7 Badges
Aug 15, 2006
1.269
2.112
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
Well almost the entire German arsenal couldnt pierce them, and most German radios of the time were so bad it didnt make a difference, they were communicating with signal flags too. Most battles of the time during the Battle of France werent really able to change much during an ongoing attack or defense. The germans were better at it, but had subpar equipment compared to the Brits and French.

The Tiger had a very slow turret, horrible breakdowns, was very hard to move, guzzled fuel, etc, it was a pile of junk.

The French deployed them badly, made mistakes, had a lowered will to fight, theres tons of factors that contribute to what happened and why subpar equipment beat better equipment.

The D520 was just as good as a 109 and far, far better than early Emil models armed only with rifle caliber MGs. A centerline 20mm was better than the wing mounted guns on any axis aircraft at the time. The germans liked it so much they went with one themselves for the F, first trying a 15mm and eventually going up to the 20.

Factors like organization and deployment, doctrine, thats what failed the French.

The Mas was better than the K98, the list goes on and on. The French even had more SMGs deployed in greater numbers. The only thing they didnt have was better LMGs, or better doctrine.
 

War_lord

Colonel
64 Badges
Aug 13, 2012
1.121
1.679
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
Sorry to interrupt the parade of fantastic inventions. But the Japanese navy knew that even in the best case scenario, they weren't going to be making landings in the US. The plan was to seize strategic islands in the pacific, set up a defensive cordon to protect their resource shipments, and then hold out till public opinion in the US inevitably shifted against the war, bringing the United States to the negotiation table.

The Japanese weren't idiots, and if they hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor the United States would have blockaded them until an excuse to get directly involved presented itself. That's how colonial power projection works.

EDIT: In all the lectures I've watched on youtube, the recurring opinion is that the French had better equipment then the Germans, but it didn't matter because French Doctrine for using that equipment hadn't budged from WWI.
 

Krafty

Lt. General
7 Badges
Aug 15, 2006
1.269
2.112
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
Over 40 documented assassination attempts on Hitler go back as far as 1934. I'm sorry if you misunderstood my opposition to your statement.

Hitler kept power through several actual coup attempts and kept the entire nation, often to the final days, fulfilling his will and running his war machine.

When did the German worker say they were under more hardship than they could handle? I forgot about the workers strike and Hitler's removal after Stalingrad...or was it Kursk? I can't seem to find sources that show the reduction of production because the war was killing 1 in 4 of their sons at the front and 1 in 20 at home.

Wait. You even say production INCREASED, despite the bombing (which is still proven to have had a seriously detrimental effect on the availability of rolling stock and locomotives, which supplied everything) which obviously had more than a "negligible" impact. Read the actual reports, often they describe the failures that people crow from the roof as having been some sort of hidden fact.

And as for all the "details" coming out of Russia since 2001. Many of those sources corroborate what Keegan and such were saying for years and any educated historian, that reads between the numbers, could see without added Red Army bias.

Operation Paperclip really swept the field of actual, remaining, German technological aptitude. Russia got sloppy seconds. You really think the 70% of Germany briefly occupied by the Allies didn't give us enough insight into what German had? Hell. Read the US Army Manual on Germany from (March 1945) and it will blow your mind what the west already knew Germany was doing in every facet.

Anyway. I'm done with this opinionated and heated discourse. Reminds me why I backed away from these forums.

Back to the purpose of these forums and prep to smash the US (as could have been done in real life) with my Axis Alliance!

You mean the one that Halder helped write? Talk about bias.
 

Alex_brunius

Field Marshal
68 Badges
Mar 24, 2006
22.404
5.017
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • War of the Roses
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Magicka 2
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • PDXCON 2017 Gold Ticket holder
  • Surviving Mars
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
The context is with an Axis that is in a position to invade the US, thus making more assets more attractive. Opportunity cost personified. The US was in no danger in real life of invasion, so they didnt need them.

In OUR scenario, they have a threat of invasion, thus, they could easily produce those things.

Thats what we're talking about, what the US COULD produce to prevent an invasion.

But that context / scenario is 100% pointless because there is no scenario even remotely realistic or historically plausible where the Axis can be in a position to invade USA, which means the US historical shipbuilding capacity is about as relevant as using the amount of Battleships they historically built between 1924 and 1936 as a basis of their shipbuilding capacity...

If the Axis are in a position to invade USA we are so far in fantasy land already that US historical shipbuilding stopped matter before going 10% as much off historical tracks as we currently are!
 

Krafty

Lt. General
7 Badges
Aug 15, 2006
1.269
2.112
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
Sorry to interrupt the parade of fantastic inventions. But the Japanese navy knew that even in the best case scenario, they weren't going to be making landings in the US. The plan was to seize strategic islands in the pacific, set up a defensive cordon to protect their resource shipments, and then hold out till public opinion in the US inevitably shifted against the war, bringing the United States to the negotiation table.

The Japanese weren't idiots, and if they hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor the United States would have blockaded them until an excuse to get directly involved presented itself. That's how colonial power projection works.

And their only theoretical plan had to do with taking parts of south America and using a "5th column" of South American "anti imperialists". They knew they couldnt land troops of any decent number or supply them.
 

Krafty

Lt. General
7 Badges
Aug 15, 2006
1.269
2.112
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
But that context / scenario is 100% pointless because there is no scenario even remotely realistic or historically plausible where the Axis can be in a position to invade USA, which means the US historical shipbuilding capacity is about as relevant as using the amount of Battleships they historically built between 1922 and 1936 as a basis of their shipbuilding capacity...

If the Axis can be in a position to invade USA we are so far in fantasy land already that US historical shipbuilding stopped matter before going 10% as much off historical tracks as we currently are!

THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD AND EXACTLY WHAT IVE BEEN PROVING.

Nice to see you agree with me.

Its unrealistic that the Axis wins in Europe, even more unrealistic that they ever could invade the US.

That would make for a really boring game tho.
 

Alex_brunius

Field Marshal
68 Badges
Mar 24, 2006
22.404
5.017
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • War of the Roses
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Magicka 2
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • PDXCON 2017 Gold Ticket holder
  • Surviving Mars
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
Nice to see you agree with me.

I always was agreeing with you on the main point about the plausibility of an Axis invasion of USA.


That would make for a really boring game tho.

It would also make for a challenging and educational game when playing as the Axis, something alot of people have been asking for!
 

Krafty

Lt. General
7 Badges
Aug 15, 2006
1.269
2.112
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
Total agreement.

And theres ways to balance that. A game that pigeon holes you to history isnt terribly fun. Even in War in the East/West, I still find myself finding new ways to approach problems and try new strategies some of which are very ahistorical.

That game is far closer to reality in this one, but its still fun to try different things which probably, or definitely, werent possible in real life.

A game needs to be flexible enough to allow you to have fun, which increases replayability too, but I think a historical game needs to at least model the challenges involved in real life to make you appreciate the history.

Invading things is way to easy all around, before we even get to fantasy scenarios.

I think a simple change would be to lower the 10 divisions starting invasion size, which with large templates end up being as large as Dday, right from the start of the game... that seems a little...ridiculous.
 

Rommel41

-R DACT D-
44 Badges
May 22, 2004
540
187
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Lead and Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
I don't understand the Halder plug? Are you getting at me being some sort of apologist?

I don't think Beppo Römer knew Halder? Not sure if that's what you meant?

Overall. The statement;

"Germany and the Axis powers could have won the war."

Is more factual than;

"The US could have never lost the war."

Right?

Therefore. An invasion is a possibility.
 

War_lord

Colonel
64 Badges
Aug 13, 2012
1.121
1.679
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
It's also very unrealistic when Ulm is a World power by 1650. None of Paradox's other games are sims, I don't see why HOI should be different just because WWII has a higher-then-average number of hobbist-historians to complain.
 

Krafty

Lt. General
7 Badges
Aug 15, 2006
1.269
2.112
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
Halder's memoirs was the leading source for historians before the 2001 archive release, and he helped the US Army historical department write the report you mentioned.

The US president gave him a medal for it in 1961.

Pretty sure saying "but the Russians are bias" is not a convincing argument when Halder is the leading source for the western understanding of Germany in world war two.

Im just saying, ill take and objective inquiry by the power that took all the actual paperwork, rather than the study done by a single guy who was working for the people who beat him.
 

Krafty

Lt. General
7 Badges
Aug 15, 2006
1.269
2.112
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
Sorry my bad I thought you posted the Strategic Assessment of German Production. Apologies. You posted the effects of the campaign.

Still, my point about Halder stands. The Russian information has less bias. Especially when its about Germany. Russian information about Russia? Well. Your mileage may vary.
 

hkrommel

Resident Contrarian
69 Badges
Feb 27, 2014
4.229
2.142
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
Well almost the entire German arsenal couldnt pierce them, and most German radios of the time were so bad it didnt make a difference, they were communicating with signal flags too.

Agreed, but at least the German commanders could see the signal flags out of their cupolas.

The Tiger had a very slow turret, horrible breakdowns, was very hard to move, guzzled fuel, etc, it was a pile of junk.

Slow turret: not a problem if the tank is used in the correct role. WWII wasn't anything like World of Tanks.
Horrible breakdowns: so did the S35 you're lauding, worse in certain areas as tracks were at times impossible to replace. Every tank had horrible breakdowns at first unless it went through significant testing before deployment. The T-34, the Panther, the IS-2, all had tons of breakdowns at first. I'll agree it's overengineered but it was still no worse as a design than many other tanks initially.
Very hard to move: Like any other heavy tank. Again, you're acting like it's supposed to be a medium tank here. Roles are important.
Guzzled fuel: True, but only a real issue in offensive maneuvers.

The Tiger was (ironically) supremely suited to a defensive role, as it was used in France. Its range, accuracy, penetration, and armor meant it could catch hostile formations out of position and pick them apart, form the cornerstone of a rugged defense, or hunt enemy AFVs with ease. More often than not it could withstand the reprisals as the enemy couldn't get close enough either because they got ambushed and were panicking, or it was accompanied by other AFVs and infantry (there was that one scene in Band of Brothers that illustrates this well, where a Tiger and Jagdpanther take out a column of Sherman Fireflies). Used in this role it would be at maximum fuel efficiency, its lack of mobility would be less of an issue, its turret traverse speed would also be less of an issue (it wouldn't need to take urgent snap shots), etc. That's not to say it had no weaknesses or even few weaknesses, but roles are important.

The French deployed them badly, made mistakes, had a lowered will to fight, theres tons of factors that contribute to what happened and why subpar equipment beat better equipment.

Agreed.

The Mas was better than the K98, the list goes on and on.

Agreed as well. French rifles are severely underappreciated, but they still don't beat the M1.

Im just saying, ill take and objective inquiry by the power that took all the actual paperwork

"Objective inquiry" and "Soviet Union" (substituted for "power") shouldn't be in the same sentence. Everything was political to them, from music to architecture to warfare. The information may be useful but acting as if it's this be-all end-all objective source of empirical authority is laughable. It may be a better source than demonstrably biased German sources, but you need to show why or how those sources are biased as well as why or how the Soviets aren't (or in this case whether or not they selectively preserved/released documents). There was a concerted effort during the Cold War by the Soviets to minimize the contributions of the Western Allies (just as the West tried to minimize the contributions of the Soviets), and thus I find it probable that the Soviets would seek to portray the strategic bombing campaign as ineffective in order to increase the perception of their own contributions, and decrease that of the West's contributions.
 
Last edited:

Antediluvian Monster

Gleiwitz/Mainila/Russia
3 Badges
Dec 7, 2015
2.312
2.247
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris Sign-up
Overall. The statement;

"Germany and the Axis powers could have won the war."

Is more factual than;

"The US could have never lost the war."

Right?

I would not say so, no. Certainly not in early-mid '40s. In fact, I think even Britain was in superlative position to not lose. In better position to not lose than Axis was at attacking and occupying it at least.
 

Lord Dakier

Major
75 Badges
Feb 2, 2012
581
102
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Meh, I stand by my point that WW2 would never have gotten to that stage regardless. US would of negotiated before that and the Axis would have consolidated its position in Europe.

As much as American pride doesn't like to admit it, with the long period of military and naval build-up required the Axis realistically could have invaded the US, would it be worth it. Probably not. Can it be done by 1948? No it cannot. Should it be doable in the game? Absolutely.
 

Chengar Qordath

General
101 Badges
May 18, 2001
2.152
3
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
Leaving aside the matter of production numbers (which an entirely Axis-controlled Europe and Asia could potentially match and beat with a couple decades of buildup) there's the utterly insane logistics of a cross-continent invasion. D-day was incredibly difficult to pull off, and that was done at a about 2% of the distance between Europe and the US, and with the Allies holding near-total mastery of the air and sea.
 

Bane5

Major
57 Badges
Sep 9, 2012
642
1.883
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
A stand-off between the eastern and western hemisphere would have been decided with peace, or that failing, a race to the atom bomb, nukes, and aerospace power projection--not naval invasions.
 

Krafty

Lt. General
7 Badges
Aug 15, 2006
1.269
2.112
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
Agreed, but at least the German commanders could see the signal flags out of their cupolas.

Which is great and all, with your 20mm armed Panzer II up against a Hotchkiss 39 that was entirely immune to your weaponry, including the 37mm door knockers your infantry is toting around, along with their Panzerbu ATRs. Meanwhile the Boyes with the French could kill Pz1s and 2s frontally, and IIIs from the side. If it wasnt for air power, and Germany simply moving around and past French divisions they couldnt beat, the advance would have come to a halt.

The German's advantage was their doctrine, their infantry armament and coordination, namely the MG34, and their ability to split into fireteams, along with airpower, and a chain of command that was given the authority to make changes without running them up the chain of command.

Whereas the French were unable to alter course once a battle started, because they had to ask up the chain to make those changes and by the time the orders were sent back that it was ok to change course, the battle was usually already lost. German NCOs could attack, hold, retreat, on their own, without permission, French NCOs couldnt do that.

Add to that EXCELLENT recon with the Storch, and Britain refusing to put Spitfires in France and you have a recipe for disaster of the Allies own making. Not the Germans. The Germans got very lucky.



Slow turret: not a problem if the tank is used in the correct role. WWII wasn't anything like World of Tanks.

Yes, the Tiger was a great pillbox.


Horrible breakdowns: so did the S35 you're lauding, worse in certain areas as tracks were at times impossible to replace. Every tank had horrible breakdowns at first unless it went through significant testing before deployment. The T-34, the Panther, the IS-2, all had tons of breakdowns at first. I'll agree it's overengineered but it was still no worse as a design than many other tanks initially.
Very hard to move: Like any other heavy tank. Again, you're acting like it's supposed to be a medium tank here. Roles are important.
Guzzled fuel: True, but only a real issue in offensive maneuvers.

Remember we're talking about the Tiger, not the Tiger II. The Tiger was absolute garbage. The Tiger II was better, but still not fantastic. Then you get into outside factors like cost, resources, labor, and it was a totally wasted endeavor. Theres nothing a Tiger did well that a Stug couldnt do. Or a Hetzer. For considerably less cost.

The Tiger was (ironically) supremely suited to a defensive role, as it was used in France. Its range, accuracy, penetration, and armor meant it could catch hostile formations out of position and pick them apart, form the cornerstone of a rugged defense, or hunt enemy AFVs with ease. More often than not it could withstand the reprisals as the enemy couldn't get close enough either because they got ambushed and were panicking, or it was accompanied by other AFVs and infantry (there was that one scene in Band of Brothers that illustrates this well, where a Tiger and Jagdpanther take out a column of Sherman Fireflies). Used in this role it would be at maximum fuel efficiency, its lack of mobility would be less of an issue, its turret traverse speed would also be less of an issue (it wouldn't need to take urgent snap shots), etc. That's not to say it had no weaknesses or even few weaknesses, but roles are important.

Its not ironic, its tragic. They built them to be offensive wundertanks, and them being good at best on defense, is not a strength, its a role they were forced to fit into because they were bad at everything else. Rarely is there range in real life to take advantage of the 88s range, and its armor was fine against some weaponry, but the Firefly had no problem punching it frontally. 501 and 102 companies lost their Tigers in three weeks time in France. Airpower, doctrine and command authority by allied forces, rendered any advancements the Tiger had moot, just like the Germans rendered superior tanks moot in the Battle of France with the same advantages.






"Objective inquiry" and "Soviet Union" (substituted for "power") shouldn't be in the same sentence. Everything was political to them, from music to architecture to warfare. The information may be useful but acting as if it's this be-all end-all objective source of empirical authority is laughable. It may be a better source than demonstrably biased German sources, but you need to show why or how those sources are biased as well as why or how the Soviets aren't (or in this case whether or not they selectively preserved/released documents). There was a concerted effort during the Cold War by the Soviets to minimize the contributions of the Western Allies (just as the West tried to minimize the contributions of the Soviets), and thus I find it probable that the Soviets would seek to portray the strategic bombing campaign as ineffective in order to increase the perception of their own contributions, and decrease that of the West's contributions.

I know it sounds odd, but the Soviets only lied about the Soviet government, and they documented their lies very well. When it comes to military operations, there was a dual system in place, even after Stalin imposed Stavka over the Dual Command system. There was Stalin's history, and the ACTUAL history. We're talking about people who invented the ICBM, put Sputnik in space, did the first heart transplant, etc. When it came to science and math, these guys were on point, even if they had to hide results from Stalin. Once Stalin was dead, that stuff stopped mostly.

Military matters however were very accurate because they NEEDED to be accurate. The creation of Deep Battle, Reflexive Control, Wide Doctrine and Strategic Nuclear strategies, were all stepped in myth and clouded behind the iron curtain, but behind the curtain, these people did diligent and honest work to discover things that worked and were correct.

While what was reported during the Soviet's reign was usually political mumbo jumbo, behind the scenes people were doing real research and study. They had to. You dont build the T72 with "fake news". You dont built 30,000 Nuclear warheads with "fake news".

So while during their height you had the massive Soviet propaganda machine going, within the Kremlin, the truth was paramount. The Russians knew the entire time about the "Lost Battles" because they were the ones who covered them up to make sure the allies didnt know that the Soviet army was horrible during the war. Then perpetuated that they were bad as a part of their operation of "Reflexive Control" to the west, while at the same time, telling their own people that the Allies were terrible.

What we found when the archives were released was that there was this dual "truth" in the Soviet Union. There was the propaganda, but there was the real studies as well.

Also when it comes to captured paperwork, it wasnt Russian, it was German. So when that was released from the archives theres very little bias there. Whereas Halder was mostly going from "memory" and in large part was appeasing his new "captors" to avoid a bad fate at Spandau.

So with regards to the Soviet's assessment of the 8th Airforces campaign we dont just have Soviet analysis, we have GERMAN analysis that was in Soviet hands for 60 years.

The German analysis is METICULOUS. ~80% of allied raid documents were captured by the Soviets.

Theres some great documentaries and books about the last days of Berlin. Because of Hitler, no one destroyed anything until the Soviets were literally inside the suburbs. It only took hours to captured the Reichstag, and most of the German archives. While alot was destroyed, reports call Berlin in its final hours one big trash can fire of floating papers and ash, the Soviets captured a plethora of German archives.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.