Should Ahistorical nations be added as formable?

[VI Imre]

Lotharingia, formable both by Burgundian/Walloon primary culture nations (French state) and Dutch/Flemish primary culture nations (Germanic state).
Vasconia, formable by Basque nations, in this case only by Navarra.
Illyria, South Slavic union.
Occitania or Aquitania, formable by South French cultures, secondary French Union tag.
Gallia, formable by Brittany when they own Paris. Resettles Paris to Breton. Also, Celtic union tag.

And a few non fictional formable nations:
Hungary, by Transylvania.
Croatia, by Ragusa.
Poland, by Silesia and Mazovia.

 

[MiniaAr]

And a few non fictional formable nations:
Hungary, by Transylvania.
Croatia, by Ragusa.
Poland, by Silesia and Mazovia.

I like those, a little less so the other ones except Lotahringia.

I would add:

• Yuan as an alternative Qing if formed by an Altaic culture country
• An unification tag for Altaic cultures (some kind of reformed Mongolian Empire)
• A decision for Tatar countries to become the cultural union of tatars if a country holds the breakaway khanates (Kazan, Crimea, Nogai, Golden Horde) capitals.
• More countries to form in India and a different formation for Hindu and Muslim countries: Bharat for Hindus and Hindustan for Muslims (with a cressent flag).
• Formations for westernised countries: Westernised Qing/Ming/Yuan become China, westernised Mughals/Bharat/Hindustan become India, etc...
• The Caliphate if a country passes Unify Islam does have a nice touch to it, even if it's pushing it far.
• Turkey could be formed by Anatolian beyliks or by the Ottomans if they lose the Balkans/their dynasty.
• Two-Siciles and Belgium because why not, those countries formed in history. But add a tech requirement similar to Westphalia so that it only appears later in the game.

 

[grandadmiralbob]

I like those, a little less so the other ones except Lotahringia.

I would add:

• Yuan as an alternative Qing if formed by an Altaic culture country
• An unification tag for Altaic cultures (some kind of reformed Mongolian Empire)
• A decision for Tatar countries to become the cultural union of tatars if a country holds the breakaway khanates (Kazan, Crimea, Nogai, Golden Horde) capitals.
• More countries to form in India and a different formation for Hindu and Muslim countries: Bharat for Hindus and Hindustan for Muslims (with a cressent flag).
• Formations for westernised countries: Westernised Qing/Ming/Yuan become China, westernised Mughals/Bharat/Hindustan become India, etc...
• The Caliphate if a country passes Unify Islam does have a nice touch to it, even if it's pushing it far.
• Turkey could be formed by Anatolian beyliks or by the Ottomans if they lose the Balkans/their dynasty.
• Two-Siciles and Belgium because why not, those countries formed in history. But add a tech requirement similar to Westphalia so that it only appears later in the game.

These are good.

 

[AurochsAway]

It's only looks a bit silly because you're so used to the other one and I'm pretty sure it was James VI that designed it.

No it doesn't look as good because the current one has the colour progression red->white->blue outwards, but if the Saltire is in front then white is both in the middle on the edges of the flag and on top in the centre of the flag. I'm willing to bet it would've looked nicer before the Irish bit was added though.

 

[ahyangyi]

I like those, a little less so the other ones except Lotahringia.

I would add:

• Yuan as an alternative Qing if formed by an Altaic culture country
• An unification tag for Altaic cultures (some kind of reformed Mongolian Empire)
• A decision for Tatar countries to become the cultural union of tatars if a country holds the breakaway khanates (Kazan, Crimea, Nogai, Golden Horde) capitals.
• More countries to form in India and a different formation for Hindu and Muslim countries: Bharat for Hindus and Hindustan for Muslims (with a cressent flag).
• Formations for westernised countries: Westernised Qing/Ming/Yuan become China, westernised Mughals/Bharat/Hindustan become India, etc...
• The Caliphate if a country passes Unify Islam does have a nice touch to it, even if it's pushing it far.
• Turkey could be formed by Anatolian beyliks or by the Ottomans if they lose the Balkans/their dynasty.
• Two-Siciles and Belgium because why not, those countries formed in history. But add a tech requirement similar to Westphalia so that it only appears later in the game.

These all look good for me.

However, I guess the "losing territory/losing dynasty" condition for Turkey is weird.
Also, there's already an decision for a sunni ruler to become the "khalifah", which only requires mil 3. What does it mean at all?

 

[herrmarisa]

I actually think that the game could have some newer "fantasy" or proposed cultural unions upon "discovering" nationalism. Why not? It certainly wouldn't be implaucible for a strong Celtic nation to unite all of Britannia as some form of the Celtic union, especially considering all sorts of historical and archeological discoveries made in the 17-19th centuries. Slavonic Union is also not so unlikely, pan-Slavism was very strong in Russia back then and it (well, "we") actually made rather large steps towards achieving some kind of a Slavonic union, but other great powers of the time didn't hesitate to put some spoke in the wheels and there were quite many disagreements on various topics, such as religion, so it wasn't achieved in the end. However, it's still a possibility and I think it should be considered.

Out of other regions, I think some obvious choices would be Maghreb, recreation of the Roman Empire if ERE is obliterated but Greece gains independence, maybe some kind of a great horde thing that keeps the name of your horde but expands its cultural span on the entire Tartar culture group, and perhaps a couple of Indian formables instead of Hindustan.

 

[Blood4u]

Lotharingia, formable both by Burgundian/Walloon primary culture nations (French state) and Dutch/Flemish primary culture nations (Germanic state).
Vasconia, formable by Basque nations, in this case only by Navarra.
Illyria, South Slavic union.
Occitania or Aquitania, formable by South French cultures, secondary French Union tag.
Gallia, formable by Brittany when they own Paris. Resettles Paris to Breton. Also, Celtic union tag.

And a few non fictional formable nations:
Hungary, by Transylvania.
Croatia, by Ragusa.
Poland, by Silesia and Mazovia.

Lothragia is a good one from the list.
BUt a big no to Hungary by Transylvanya,historically and logically it would never form,transivanya is majority of romanians from first apperance to nowdays,i am 100% they wouldn't form it in hell,altough won't argue hungarians live there but it's the procentages.
I don't know about the other non-fictional though.

 

[ahyangyi]

Lothragia is a good one from the list.
BUt a big no to Hungary by Transylvanya,historically and logically it would never form,transivanya is majority of romanians from first apperance to nowdays,i am 100% they wouldn't form it in hell,altough won't argue hungarians live there but it's the procentages.
I don't know about the other non-fictional though.

Also a big no to Hungary by Transylvanya for me. But what if no Hungary exists and a nation with hungary culture as primary controls most important Hungarian provinces?

 

[MiniaAr]

Lothragia is a good one from the list.
BUt a big no to Hungary by Transylvanya,historically and logically it would never form,transivanya is majority of romanians from first apperance to nowdays,i am 100% they wouldn't form it in hell,altough won't argue hungarians live there but it's the procentages.
I don't know about the other non-fictional though.

Also a big no to Hungary by Transylvanya for me. But what if no Hungary exists and a nation with hungary culture as primary controls most important Hungarian provinces?

Weren't the nobles ruling Transylvania mostly of Hungarian origin? If the ruling class of Transylvania got to control most of a dead Hungary's territory, wouldn't they want to reform their original country?:unsure:
I'm not disputing the fact that the majority of the Transylvanian population was Romanian, but the ruling class was mostly an alliance of Hungarian nobles, Saxons burghers and Székelys (Hungarian-related) frontier soldiers: Union of Threee Nations

 

[ahyangyi]

Weren't the nobles ruling Transylvania mostly of Hungarian origin? If the ruling class of Transylvania got to control most of a dead Hungary's territory, wouldn't they want to reform their original country?:unsure:
I'm not disputing the fact that the majority of the Transylvanian population was Romanian, but the ruling class was mostly an alliance of Hungarian nobles, Saxons burghers and Székelys (Hungarian-related) frontier soldiers: Union of Threee Nations

You are right. The Transylvania in game does have Hungarian culture anyway...

In general I wish to be able to form a nation for every cultural group and every culture, with similar conditions. So for example I think we should have a Yugoslavia because South Slav culture group is a thing in game.

 

[User29]

Transylvania should absolutely be able to form Hungary, they were a Hungarian ran state.

 

[TheRipper69-PT]

The whole iberian marriage event has great flaws...
Portugal and Navarra should have the chance (if they want) to contest the Iberian marriage in battle if they have a RM with Aragon or Castille... Like it happened in history...
If it wins, Portugal gets the PU with the country to which has the RM, if it has a RM with both gets the PU with the ruler of opposite sex

 

[in heaven]

Not really ahistorical (most), but:
Wales if you culture flip to welsh.
Catalonia if aragon is annexed and your culture is catalonian. For late mid/late game
Californian republic if you are colonian nation in Californian colonial region.
Australia and New Zealand, same way as Californian Republic, in their own regions.
Mongol khanate if Mongols are annexed and your main culture is Mongol
Iberia?
Belgium, only in late game
Estonia and Latvia
Finland if your culture is suomi
Macedonia

I would like Carthage to be formable but theres just no way they would add that..

 

[Blood4u]

Weren't the nobles ruling Transylvania mostly of Hungarian origin? If the ruling class of Transylvania got to control most of a dead Hungary's territory, wouldn't they want to reform their original country?:unsure:
I'm not disputing the fact that the majority of the Transylvanian population was Romanian, but the ruling class was mostly an alliance of Hungarian nobles, Saxons burghers and Székelys (Hungarian-related) frontier soldiers: Union of Threee Nations

Yes this is totally true the rulers of transylvania were mostly hungarians and othre cathloich classes because there was an act that required one to be cathloic to rule over a domain,and since romanians were orthodox(which is not even represented in the game) is why they were rulling.
And it doesn't make sense to say that if they noble rule they would form,to start with in order to get an independent translivania you need the people to riot because they dont want hungarian ocupation,so they will never form it back just because they "accept culture".It would never happen. transilvania cores will always riot if under any occuption except romanian.

 

[User29]

Yes this is totally true the rulers of transylvania were mostly hungarians and othre cathloich classes because there was an act that required one to be cathloic to rule over a domain,and since romanians were orthodox(which is not even represented in the game) is why they were rulling.
And it doesn't make sense to say that if they noble rule they would form,to start with in order to get an independent translivania you need the people to riot because they dont want hungarian ocupation,so they will never form it back just because they "accept culture".It would never happen. transilvania cores will always riot if under any occuption except romanian.

They're Hungarian in game and see themselves as Magyar nobles, the provinces are even Hungarian, It seems totally right for a Hungarian Transylvania to reform Hungary if it can pick up the pieces. If it somehow culture converted to Romanian then it wouldn't make sense.

 

[oblio-]

The primary culture of Transylvania at the start of the game should be Hungarian. Then, depending on which way you change your main culture:
a) Hungarian culture: allow Transylvania to form Hungary if doesn't exist.
b) Romanian culture: form Romania if Transylvania has the required provinces.

They're Hungarian in game and see themselves as Magyar nobles, the provinces are even Hungarian, It seems totally right for a Hungarian Transylvania to reform Hungary if it can pick up the pieces. If it somehow culture converted to Romanian then it wouldn't make sense.

(Mostly) Agreed. See my proposal above.

Yes, this is totally true the rulers of Transylvania were mostly Hungarians and other catholic classes because there was an act that required one to be catholic to rule over a domain, and since Romanians were orthodox (which is not even represented in the game) is why they were ruling.
And it doesn't make sense to say that if they noble rule they would form, to start with in order to get an independent Transylvania you need the people to riot because they don't want Hungarian occupation, so they will never form it back just because they "accept culture". It would never happen. Transylvania cores will always riot if under any occupation except Romanian.

That's a purely nationalistic point of view. We have no proof that Romanians were a majority in 1444. We don't have proof that the Hungarians were a majority either. What we do have proof is that there were only a few Romanian nobles in Transylvania in 1444, the vast majority were Hungarian, German, Szekely. The revolts during this period were of an economical nature: Romanian and Hungarian peasants versus Hungarian, German, Szekely nobles. A strong Romanian national conscience and identity appeared after the end of the game, so it's not extremely relevant - regarding revolts in Transylvania.
Transylvania in the game's time frame was a Hungarian led remnant of the former Kingdom of Hungary.

The proper thing for Paradox to do would be to:
a) add 1 German province in Transylvania
b) change 2 Hungarian provinces to Romanian provinces in Transylvania
The rest of the provinces should be Hungarian.
The reasoning behind this is simple: there are many other similar situations where the province actually has the culture of the majority population, not the ruling class. Transylvania was always a mixed-population region and it is incorrectly portrayed in-game because it's so homogenous.
Examples of similar territories which don't have the culture of the ruling class: Rhodes (Maltese rulers, Greek population), Cyprus (French rulers, Greek population), most Ukrainian provinces (Polish/Lithuanian rulers, Ruthenian population), etc.
Anyway, most of this off-topic so we should cut it short.

 

[MiniaAr]

The primary culture of Transylvania at the start of the game should be Hungarian. Then, depending on which way you change your main culture:
a) Hungarian culture: allow Transylvania to form Hungary if doesn't exist.
b) Romanian culture: form Romania if Transylvania has the required provinces.

(Mostly) Agreed. See my proposal above.




That's a purely nationalistic point of view. We have no proof that Romanians were a majority in 1444. We don't have proof that the Hungarians were a majority either. What we do have proof is that there were only a few Romanian nobles in Transylvania in 1444, the vast majority were Hungarian, German, Szekely. The revolts during this period were of an economical nature: Romanian and Hungarian peasants versus Hungarian, German, Szekely nobles. A strong Romanian national conscience and identity appeared after the end of the game, so it's not extremely relevant - regarding revolts in Transylvania.
Transylvania in the game's time frame was a Hungarian led remnant of the former Kingdom of Hungary.

The proper thing for Paradox to do would be to:
a) add 1 German province in Transylvania
b) change 2 Hungarian provinces to Romanian provinces in Transylvania
The rest of the provinces should be Hungarian.
The reasoning behind this is simple: there are many other similar situations where the province actually has the culture of the majority population, not the ruling class. Transylvania was always a mixed-population region and it is incorrectly portrayed in-game because it's so homogenous.
Examples of similar territories which don't have the culture of the ruling class: Rhodes (Maltese rulers, Greek population), Cyprus (French rulers, Greek population), most Ukrainian provinces (Polish/Lithuanian rulers, Ruthenian population), etc.
Anyway, most of this off-topic so we should cut it short.

I agree with most of this.
Alternatively, regarding cultures, why not create a Transylvanian culture to represent the melting pot (Hungarians, Romanians, Saxons, Székelys) of the region and have it in the same cultural group as Hungarian (maybe with Romanian as well, in a bigger and more useful Vlach-Hungarian cultural group)?

 

[birincikalite]

I think custom nations are more like what mods are for.

But... I'd actually love seeing my GB stay yellow if I formed it with Scotland, or a Purple Burgundy formed France

 

[oblio-]

I agree with most of this.
Alternatively, regarding cultures, why not create a Transylvanian culture to represent the melting pot (Hungarians, Romanians, Saxons, Székelys) of the region and have it in the same cultural group as Hungarian (maybe with Romanian as well, in a bigger and more useful Vlach-Hungarian cultural group)?

Well, I don't know if Paradox can make a culture be in 2 culture groups at the same time.
A Vlach-Hungarian group will not survive long if faced with the raging vitriol of nationalists on both sides.

 

[MiniaAr]

Well, I don't know if Paradox can make a culture be in 2 culture groups at the same time.
A Vlach-Hungarian group will not survive long if faced with the raging vitriol of nationalists on both sides.

Well, I meant having a Vlach-Hungarian group with Hungarian, Transylvanian and Romanian as individual cultures.
Obviously, Romanian will be out of the south Slavic group. This would encourage Wallachia/independant Moldavia to fight for Transylvania and Hungary getting involved with WAL/MOL, which was the main area of expansion for HUN IIRC.