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unmerged(45464)

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Instead of just being a negative multiplier for attacking troops, is there any way of making shore batteries capable of hurting ships in HoI3? I want to be able to recreate the sinking of Blücher by the Oslo shore batteries ^^ and of course because it seems more realistic. If the sea-zones are small enough they can make the cannons hurt ships similar to how AA guns work, of course this doesn't make much sense if the sea-zones are as big as in HoI2 since it would mean the guns had a range of hundreds of kilometers.
 

Sirveri

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It would still be nice to have shore batteries, because then you could 'run the gauntlet' as far as Gibralter and Oeresound are concerned. Also they could be treated like CV's doing a shore bombard against territory with heavy AA gun concentration if they want to shore bombard.
 

III.Selim

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Shore batteries should hurt ships when there's a shore bombardment, amphibious assault etc. But shore batteries shouldn't get to shoot when ships are not close by. (Shore batteries shouldn't work when ships are on duty of Naval interdiction, convoy raiding, and just passing the sea zone)
 

unmerged(42324)

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Mar 30, 2005
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Shore batteries should hurt ships when there's a shore bombardment, amphibious assault etc. But shore batteries shouldn't get to shoot when ships are not close by. (Shore batteries shouldn't work when ships are on duty of Naval interdiction, convoy raiding, and just passing the sea zone)

Well I beg do dissagree here. In the south of norway at Kristiansund the Germans build big ass guns I mean REALLY BIG ass guns who could shoot almost halfway to denmark. The same type of guns where placed in the North of denmark, so in effect they could almost shoot across the entire entrance of the skagerack. the area in the middle which wasnt reachable was heavily mined.

For all of you who arent familiar with the geography of the area ive posted a map:)

kanondanmark.jpg


So here 1 is the Gun which was stationed in Kristiansand, 2 is the mined area in the middle which the guns coudnt reach and 3 is the gun which is stationed in Denmark.

obviously this system didnt close down the Skagerak. you also need good scouting and good weather to make it effective

Referances:
link to the museum in KRistiansand:
http://www.kanonmuseet.no/?
 

unmerged(48627)

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I`ve been to the Gun Battery in Kristiansand and it was impressive.
I think that shore batteries in general should give an org/ strength loss to ships if they are making amphibious assaults, shore bombardements etc. Except in chokepoint seazones like Skagerrak, Gibraltar, etc where the batteries obviously could reach ships in the entire seazone. The above posted battery along with airsupport was the obvious reason for why the allies didn`t enter the Baltic.
 

unmerged(42324)

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I`ve been to the Gun Battery in Kristiansand and it was impressive.
I think that shore batteries in general should give an org/ strength loss to ships if they are making amphibious assaults, shore bombardements etc. Except in chokepoint seazones like Skagerrak, Gibraltar, etc where the batteries obviously could reach ships in the entire seazone. The above posted battery along with airsupport was the obvious reason for why the allies didn`t enter the Baltic.

AGreed, some other chockepoints come to mind, Bospohrous and straights of Malakka. Even Gulf of akkaba. although not as important in this timeframe:p

Also i think it should be possible to enter canals even if you are at war with the owner.

I mean if the british didnt have any fortifications at suez, a big italian fleet wouldnt have problems just sailing through. PAnama woundt work perhaps on the other hand becasue of the locks
 

peo

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I`ve been to the Gun Battery in Kristiansand and it was impressive.
I think that shore batteries in general should give an org/ strength loss to ships if they are making amphibious assaults, shore bombardements etc. Except in chokepoint seazones like Skagerrak, Gibraltar, etc where the batteries obviously could reach ships in the entire seazone. The above posted battery along with airsupport was the obvious reason for why the allies didn`t enter the Baltic.

Not really.
The real reason they didn't enter the Baltic is since the straits leading into the Baltic wasn't possible transverse. There are only 3 places you can get into the baltic and all of them are easily closed down by shore batteries. Much easier than trying to close down Skagerak.
 

TheLand

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Really, shore batteries had very little effect in World War II.

I can't think of any examples of warships on the HOI2 scale being seriously damaged by shore fire. The exception being one German cruiser in Norway where a shore battery opened fire at 600 yards range.

The various mammoth gun batteries scored virtually no hits on anything - particularly not the various guns placed around the channel.

So I wouldn't get too worked up about the impact of shore fortifications.
 

Narvi

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Really, shore batteries had very little effect in World War II.

I can't think of any examples of warships on the HOI2 scale being seriously damaged by shore fire. The exception being one German cruiser in Norway where a shore battery opened fire at 600 yards range.

The various mammoth gun batteries scored virtually no hits on anything - particularly not the various guns placed around the channel.

So I wouldn't get too worked up about the impact of shore fortifications.

The impact of the shore battery is not measured by the number of damaged or sunk ships - but quite the opposite. Their primary function is to prevent the ships from closing on some destination - which they effectively did (with several exceptions of course, but no defence is perfect).
 

TheLand

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The impact of the shore battery is not measured by the number of damaged or sunk ships - but quite the opposite. Their primary function is to prevent the ships from closing on some destination - which they effectively did (with several exceptions of course, but no defence is perfect).

I agree.

But this thread is all about giving shore batteries damage-dealing power, which is unrealistic.
 

WarDog

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There has already been an discussion about this. I tried to search for it, but gave up...

Costall fortresses in HOI represent fortifications on land, intended to deny invading enemy ground units access to the province. This is trenches, minefields and that sort of fortifications - not large anti ship guns. The combat modifiers accordingly only affects combat and do not engage enemy ships.

IIRC there is extremely few examples of ships sunk by naval fortresses in WW2. Their prime function was to deny enemy units access within their range of fire. Blücher is one example. But I don't think the unbelievable costly guns on the French coast sunk 0,0001% worth of shipping compared to their own cost...

Large guns is easy to silence - even in a huge bunker...

If implemented it should be wildly expencive, hit almost nothing and be easy to remove with strategic bombers. Tech improvements should increase hit rate a little, raise cost - but tech improvements in bombing should make it even easier to destroy permanently...

The effective blocking of straits is already represented in the game.
 

WarDog

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Blücher

One thing about the sinking of Blücher: It was done by a short range underwater torpedo battery unknown by the Germans in an VERY narrow straight. The guns of Oscarsborg fortress inflicted only minor damage on the German ships.

So Blücher is not rely an argument for big guns hurting ships in open coastal waters like the English channel.
 

Porkman

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The impact of the shore battery is not measured by the number of damaged or sunk ships - but quite the opposite. Their primary function is to prevent the ships from closing on some destination - which they effectively did (with several exceptions of course, but no defence is perfect).

In this sense they are much better modeled by this suggestion.

III. Selim said:
Shore batteries should hurt ships when there's a shore bombardment, amphibious assault etc. But shore batteries shouldn't get to shoot when ships are not close by. (Shore batteries shouldn't work when ships are on duty of Naval interdiction, convoy raiding, and just passing the sea zone

As to Gibraltar, Malacca, Skaggerak, the Allies or Axis would simply not go there because of the risk to surface assets. Maybe make a special rule for submarines, but these areas should be just impassable on the whole.
 

Narvi

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IIRC there is extremely few examples of ships sunk by naval fortresses in WW2. Their prime function was to deny enemy units access within their range of fire. Blücher is one example. But I don't think the unbelievable costly guns on the French coast sunk 0,0001% worth of shipping compared to their own cost...

Large guns is easy to silence - even in a huge bunker...

It is true that HoI fortifications are aimed at landings, but in reality they were mixed. Coastal artillery was an integral part of the defence of the landing sites and simultaneously could harm the nearby ships. At some locations it existed alone as well.

You present the coastal batteries as a liability rather than asset. There are some points to the contrary. First - they were not easy to disable, you need some heavy firepower to do that from the sea or considerable air force (remeber that major ships and strategic bomber units are a rare thing). Thus they made impossible quick opportunity landings from seaborne forces without heavy support. Second - they prohibited usual maritime traffic in the vicinity. Third - they could do some harm to the landing forces even if those were properly supported, or in least case provide time for reaction when enemy started to reduce them.

So they are perhaps not the most necessary element in HoI arsenal but their inclusion (with the effect on enemy ships) would be nice.
 

WarDog

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It is true that HoI fortifications are aimed at landings, but in reality they were mixed. Coastal artillery was an integral part of the defence of the landing sites and simultaneously could harm the nearby ships. At some locations it existed alone as well.

You present the coastal batteries as a liability rather than asset. There are some points to the contrary. First - they were not easy to disable, you need some heavy firepower to do that from the sea or considerable air force (remeber that major ships and strategic bomber units are a rare thing). Thus they made impossible quick opportunity landings from seaborne forces without heavy support. Second - they prohibited usual maritime traffic in the vicinity. Third - they could do some harm to the landing forces even if those were properly supported, or in least case provide time for reaction when enemy started to reduce them.

So they are perhaps not the most necessary element in HoI arsenal but their inclusion (with the effect on enemy ships) would be nice.


The problem is that they did not work except for in some narrow straights.

If you look at the actual landings that did happen during WW2, very few ships was lost due to coastal batteries. The guns where either destroyed or missed their targets.

Some batteries, like in Norway, did deny traffic within their effective fire range in good weather. BUT that was not a complete HOI sea province. And if the allied forces decided on invading Norway or if the area was important for allied shipping, you could rest assure these batteries would have been rendered inoperative.
The allied strategy concerning Norway was to make Hitler believe there where an invasion in the planning, in order to make him waste resources on fortifying Norway with things like coastal guns...

About how easy they where to destroy. The technology of bombing heavy fortified complexes made enormous leaps forward during WW2. In the beginning the gigantic steel reinforced concrete bunkers made for coastal guns and submarines where hard do destroy and required large number of bombers. But the development of things like the bunker busters and air mines changed that dramatically.

I found this quote at U-boat bunker:
The protection offered by these bunkers were adequate throughout the early years of the war, until 1943 or 1944 when the Allies introduced the Tallboy and Grand Slam bunker buster bombs. These 12,000 and 22,000 lbs bombs scored numerous direct hits and several bunkers were penetrated. The response was to further reinforce these bunkers from between 3 – 7 meters to 7 – 10 meters, but up to the end of the war, these were never completed.

Those bunkers where at least as good as the gun bunkers. Also there is no need for complete destruction to make an gun battery inoperative. Even the blast wave itself often killed the crew and dislodged the equipment.