ships being built by others

[unmerged(165422)]

I think, this is a great idea

and I have thougth about that already for Victoria 1. I also have another addition to it:
There is a slight system mistake in the improvement of ships with technologie:
When You advance Your technologylevel, all ships already building and in use improve. That is not right. When Your ship officers abilities improve, it is right, that the improvement is effective on all your ships. But when You invent a new, better hull armor, that should never affect ships in service or already building. Maybe ships already building could profit from improved secondary armament, but also for improved main armament, it would have been already to late to implement it in reality.

Now that makes the game a little bit more complicated, as after a change like that, the values for each ship would have to be saved, not the value for each shiptype of one nation. But it would make the game more interesting (to my opinion), when for exampel one country is building already battleships on a lower technological level and another country is starting to build them at a higher level, they would be better. In reality it was the same in WW I, when old german cruisers in colonial service could beat even older british cruisers at Coronel, but had no chance against modern warships near the Falkland Islands.

It may not be the most important thing for the game, but it would add flair to it. The same as buying and selling ships from other nations.

BG
Mimosnigel

 

[unmerged(138973)]

I doubt this will be in. P'dox has already stated that there will no longer be "negotiations" with the AI, meaning no more buying/selling provinces, tech, etc... So I doubt they'd throw all that out, but put in buying/selling ships.

Post by King: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10955477#post10955477

The buying and selling technologys may be out but I belive there is some sort of advisors button either in the diplomatic or sphere of influence menus. At a guess I would think uncivs accepting foriegn advisors may get a few research points.

The reason is that such a feature is too exploitable. Simply put, the AI isn't advanced enough (yet) to handle it, leaving it open to serious abuse from the player. And I agree, put this feature in the game, and you'll get players ruling the waves with the great Dreadnought Fleet of Siam.

Then again how many Dreadnoughts could Siam afford.

 

[Projekt 919]

and I have thougth about that already for Victoria 1. I also have another addition to it:
There is a slight system mistake in the improvement of ships with technologie:
When You advance Your technologylevel, all ships already building and in use improve. That is not right. When Your ship officers abilities improve, it is right, that the improvement is effective on all your ships. But when You invent a new, better hull armor, that should never affect ships in service or already building. Maybe ships already building could profit from improved secondary armament, but also for improved main armament, it would have been already to late to implement it in reality.

Now that makes the game a little bit more complicated, as after a change like that, the values for each ship would have to be saved, not the value for each shiptype of one nation. But it would make the game more interesting (to my opinion), when for exampel one country is building already battleships on a lower technological level and another country is starting to build them at a higher level, they would be better. In reality it was the same in WW I, when old german cruisers in colonial service could beat even older british cruisers at Coronel, but had no chance against modern warships near the Falkland Islands.

It may not be the most important thing for the game, but it would add flair to it. The same as buying and selling ships from other nations.

BG
Mimosnigel

For the record the SMS Scharnhorst and SMS Gneisnau of Spee were some of the best cruisers in the world, fast ,well armed, they were specifically designed to serve at tsingtao, not to mention Spee had two modern light cruisers as well. Craddock at coronel had two nearly 15 year old armored cruisers, one pre-dreadnought that was so slow it wasn't even present at the battle, and some converted merchant vessels. the battle was predictable in its result, but i agree with your statement about the upgrades hugely. the reason spee lost was the ships at the falklands were battlecruisers with 12inch guns which spee's ten inchers coulden't match the range of

 

[unmerged(207113)]

I should point out that the 'Nips were considered somewhat ahead of their time with regards to battlecruiser construction. The Admiralty learnt quite a lot from the Kongo-class (the first of which was built in England to an English design), perhaps the most successful 'export' design of the period.

Remember that whilst the Admiralty scrapped the majority of the RN's battlecruisers in the inter war period, the IJN simply rebuilt theirs as 'fast battleships' (a rather novel designation from the 20s and 30s) by increasing tonnage and armour to a degree in which Allied capital ships could be confronted on equal terms.

In game terms, I'd imagine that being able to order vessels to be constructed in foreign shipyards would be of far greater benefit to the receiver, and thus I'd be tempted to question the validity of such a move from the AI's - and in turn, the programmers' - point of view.

Nonetheless, it remains an interesting concept and would certainly be invaluable in helping 'uncivilised' nations make that jump towards civilisation.

And on that note, I have a long-scheduled appointment with a brunette and a Cognac.

Good health to you all,

Austen.

 

[Colon]

Well it was already sort of in the Vicky 1.... You needed steamer convoys, artillery and such to build ships. And when you didn't have steamer shipyard you bought them in the WM, which is just like when you commision another country to build the ship for you...

Someone explain to me again why this isn't satisfactory?

 

[unmerged(138973)]

Someone explain to me again why this isn't satisfactory?

The problem would be that while you can buy steamers and artillery on the world market to build ships, you cannot build say a protected crusier when you only have the technology for iron clads. The historical example quoted above makes the point quite well. The Japanese in the 1890s used warships that they couldn't produce domestically. In VIC 1 that would be imposible.

 

[Colon]

I don't really see to harm letting Japan have the techs to 'raise' the ships themselves by the time-frame of the Russo-Japanese war. It doesn't mean they have the factories to build steamers so they'd still essentially be ordering their ships from abroad.

Really, abusing the AI is a pretty bad reason to take the AI away (for that specific feature). They should just devote more time to working for a fix, making the AI more staunch. I mean, Civilization games have pretty good trading system, and you can't just beat the AI in bargaining by being ridiculous (didn't play vicky, wouldn't know how they abused the AI). Well, a meticulously programmed AI is possible, it just might be outside Paradox's means.

I mean, its single player anyway. If people want to cheat, why not let them cheat? You're going to force them to be 'immersed'?

Civilization is a vastly simpler game and the main reason trading in Civ4 works is because it uses crude rules, not because the AI is particularily astute. Gold and research are interchangeable, the value of techs is measured by the research required (interchangeable in gold), one resource typically equals another, the amount of gold/turn you can get for a resource equals the surplus the AI happens to have at the time and so forth.

 

[Projekt 919]

Someone explain to me again why this isn't satisfactory?

Such a system might be satisfactory up into the early 1860's but with the introduction of armored warships and improved artillery it is not really realistic anymore, thus meaning all you could build with that in reality would be a commerce raider or a steam frigate

 

[GrafKeks]

I think it´s realistically especially for Capitalist-States, because if the own governement has no building contract, but another state needs more than they can affford it´s good for both sides the capitalist gets money to build up the industry in the homeland and the other country gets what he needs for his war or their defense.
OFC there should be reforms which enables you to say "NO" to and building contract from somebody you dislike.

I really hope this feature will be included in the main game.

 

[Projekt 919]

Perhaps since supply, demand and the global market is such a huge part of this game one could have it to where for every forieng vessel bought there would be a chance of a industrialist from your country founding a modern shipyard. the more modern ships in your navy, the higher the chance would be because he would want to turn a profit if your nation was into obtaining a modern navy....

 

[evran]

I play Vic1 all the time, and I would have no idea how this would be accomplished, but I always wished that instead of manually deleting 100 Ironclads, or protected cruisers, I could have the choice of putting them on the world market. Yes maybe someone you don't like would get them but there would most likely be a high demand for them so they couldn't possible get them all, and your modern navy would beat them all.

How about adding modern ships on the world market also, say you already have a huge fleet that is way ahead of any of your potential rivals. Start putting them on the world market. And if someone's navy get's close to your size... stop putting them on the world market.

Thats basically just a wish, I don't even think it would be possible.

 

[Sid Meier]

I would consider it a good compromise if they had it so your "Steamer factory" produced rather then a constant stream of .001 goods produces One Whole Hull per X amount of time per steamer factory (representing one yard) which then you can sell on the world market or stockpile to use in your own construction efforts.

Problem solved. Foreign nations can now buy a full hull on the world market and assemble it themselves.

Just make it like Hoi3 or Navyfield where building ships requires you to manually assemble the parts on the hull with the tech level of ship tied to the Hull you happen to have.

So you have a battleship hull you can build a battleship even if you only can make cruiser hulls.

 

[Projekt 919]

I would consider it a good compromise if they had it so your "Steamer factory" produced rather then a constant stream of .001 goods produces One Whole Hull per X amount of time per steamer factory (representing one yard) which then you can sell on the world market or stockpile to use in your own construction efforts.

Problem solved. Foreign nations can now buy a full hull on the world market and assemble it themselves.

Just make it like Hoi3 or Navyfield where building ships requires you to manually assemble the parts on the hull with the tech level of ship tied to the Hull you happen to have.

So you have a battleship hull you can build a battleship even if you only can make cruiser hulls.

the problem with your solution is the fuso's were the only battleships built in this manner. what were referring to is what happened usually is a large nation that lacked shipbuilding capability on a large scale; i.e. china, japan ottoman empire, brazil, argentina, chile,r ussia even at times; would usually have different shipyards submit designs, would choose the best, and then pay the shipyard for the ships in installments progressisng as the ships construction progressesed, this was highly common in the victorian era and when england siezed turkeys magnificient new dreadnoughts, one of them the most powerful in the world, turkey was so pissed it joined WWI on the axis side. this is only so important because these ships not only would add depth, but they could drive history.........

 

[flecha224]

I like the idea of licensing ships to other countries as it was done historically (and its implemented in HOI3) and also like the idea of building ships for other countries, as it was done historically

I will buy the game be it feature or not, but I think it would be nice, in fact I think that well implemented that feature would greatly expand the gameplay