ships being built by others

[Projekt 919]

I am asking this because this was a huge factor for smaller great powers or larger middle ones, the building of large warships by other nations. For example in the latter 20 years of the nineteenth century qing dynasty china built up a reasonably formidable fleet by having many warships built for itself in european nations since it lacked the tecnology to do it itself, this fleet, the Beiyang Fleet, was the most powerful naval force in asia (theoretically) until its destruction in the first sino-japanese war. The ottoman empires Sultan Osman I and Residaye were being built in britain at the start of world war one and were the most powerful warships in the world at the time. Brazil and Argentina and chile and early on japan all depended on foriegn nations for thier large warships, so I ask, how would the game model this, and how would it model thier siezure at the beggining of a major war, like chiles or the ottoman empires? (perhaps they are siezed if the cuntry building them goes to war with another great power? and have only grEAT POWERS ABLE TO BUILD SHIPS FOR OTHERS?)(sorry caps lock)

 

[unmerged(174860)]

yes good idea

 

[Eichenthal]

would love that, too
maybe combined with the option of trading ships like provinces or techs as well?
I would love to be able to sell ships not up to date anymore to minor nations...

 

[Figo]

Absolutely great idea! I want it so much =)

 

[telesien]

Well it was already sort of in the Vicky 1.... You needed steamer convoys, artillery and such to build ships. And when you didn't have steamer shipyard you bought them in the WM, which is just like when you commision another country to build the ship for you...

 

[unmerged(188040)]

Being able to sell obsolete (for your nation) ships to smaller nations or attempt to purchase older ships from nations upgrading their navies would be a very good feature!

 

[henryjai]

Being able to sell obsolete (for your nation) ships to smaller nations or attempt to purchase older ships from nations upgrading their navies would be a very good feature!

very often the purchases were brand new, latest ships, as Japan and China did. Japan's shipbuilding sucked before they build their own congo class ships. (they still purchase congo class though) Actually, Japan's shipbuilding in 1890 was as pathetic as the supposingly "unciv" China.

That should make playing an unciv much more interesting. In vicky 1, many AI nations(including Japan, Russia) are still using raiders by 1900, IMO that's totally unrealistic and being able to have ships built by foreign yards would be so much better.

China had two very powerful ships that is able to match even the latest warships by Sino-Japanese war(inarguably better than the ships Japan had). In game they have not much chance building such ships, especially for the AI.

 

[Rhion]

I doubt this will be in. P'dox has already stated that there will no longer be "negotiations" with the AI, meaning no more buying/selling provinces, tech, etc... So I doubt they'd throw all that out, but put in buying/selling ships.

Post by King: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10955477#post10955477

 

[tretii_sleva]

Great idea.

 

[Te. Kenzo]

I doubt this will be in. P'dox has already stated that there will no longer be "negotiations" with the AI, meaning no more buying/selling provinces, tech, etc... So I doubt they'd throw all that out, but put in buying/selling ships.

Post by King: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10955477#post10955477

Yes, there is a sort of Free Market.

 

[Rhion]

Yes, there is a sort of Free Market.

I guess you mean the world market, but that's something completely different.

 

[Projekt 919]

I doubt this will be in. P'dox has already stated that there will no longer be "negotiations" with the AI, meaning no more buying/selling provinces, tech, etc... So I doubt they'd throw all that out, but put in buying/selling ships.

Post by King: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10955477#post10955477

I read that thread as well and an it occured to me a way this could be done, the same way this was done in the real victorian era. One could start an auction of sorts that would appear as a diplomatic proposal to other countries. You would specify the type of ship you wanted and the amount of cash you were willing to pay, intrested nations could then respond to the bid by accepting the offer and specifying the details of what thier willing to build you for that price. ( if ship designs are more variable like hearts of iron 3, eingienes, weopans, armor, etc.) after a set amount of auction time (say a month) a window would pop up and show you your options at which point you could either pick one of them or if you werent satisfied with the offer cancel the offer. This is realistic based on history and would not be a negotiations tab that would give the AI a huge advantage because they dont have a handicap that gives the AI more cash. What people were willing to offer you for your money could depend on global raw matieriels prices and thier relations with your country. The window should tell you at the bottom how much an average ship of the type your requesting would be worth in game terms. (say 800 for a dreadnought 600 for a pre-dreadnought 500 for a turret ship, 400 hundred for a coast defence battleship or armored cruiser, 300 for a protected cruiser, 150 for a light cruiser, 100 for a destroyer flotilla, and 80 for a submarine flotilla.) the winner of the auction would essentially be sacrificing some of his IC to build the ships while gaining cash that could be spent elsewhere for it, Italy did a lot of this in the 1890's and it used it to help itself industrialize more.

Edit: Also perhaps it would give the building nation prestige as other nations were willing to let them construct warships for them, one could also lose a little infamy when the ships were delivered but gain a lot of infamy if you siezed them for your own war. It could also be a causus belli on the building nation if they siezed your ships and at the peace settlement one could demand them (if they survived the war) back.

 

[Projekt 919]

very often the purchases were brand new, latest ships, as Japan and China did. Japan's shipbuilding sucked before they build their own congo class ships. (they still purchase congo class though) Actually, Japan's shipbuilding in 1890 was as pathetic as the supposingly "unciv" China.

That should make playing an unciv much more interesting. In vicky 1, many AI nations(including Japan, Russia) are still using raiders by 1900, IMO that's totally unrealistic and being able to have ships built by foreign yards would be so much better.

China had two very powerful ships that is able to match even the latest warships by Sino-Japanese war(inarguably better than the ships Japan had). In game they have not much chance building such ships, especially for the AI.

I like to use the ottoman example because the Sultan Osman I would have literally been the worlds most powerful dreadnought, equal to the original in firepower twice over just by weight of fire, turkey could never have built such a ship itself, but had the money to pay britain to do it, when britain siezed the ships the more or less inadvertendtly caused turkey to enter WWI on the side of the central powers ( thus my reasoning on causus-belli)

 

[henryjai]

I like to use the ottoman example because the Sultan Osman I would have literally been the worlds most powerful dreadnought, equal to the original in firepower twice over just by weight of fire, turkey could never have built such a ship itself, but had the money to pay britain to do it, when britain siezed the ships the more or less inadvertendtly caused turkey to enter WWI on the side of the central powers ( thus my reasoning on causus-belli)

yes, that'd make playing minors much more interesting.


I suggest that you can only buy ships from Great Powers, price would depend on,

1. Relation, including alliance
2. Hardware of the ship, always latest. (A good approximation)
3. Badboy, noone likes to sell ships to aggressive nations unless for a lot of money.

 

[abeth]

The mechanic to do this is already in the engine, as evidenced in HoI3's purchase of licenses system. It would be a shame if it didn't find its way in to Vicky2.

 

[Projekt 919]

The mechanic to do this is already in the engine, as evidenced in HoI3's purchase of licenses system. It would be a shame if it didn't find its way in to Vicky2.

Thats what I wast thinking sorta like a reverse production license

 

[Projekt 919]

I think this would really help one who was playing as an unciv at first say you started 1836 siam, once you established diplomatic relations with britain or france and were on your way to civilizing you could order a couple of modern ships, maybe some Ironclad steamers by 1865, from france giving you an advantage over other non-european nations not civilizing as fast (say if China Declared war on you) Imagine if japan couldn't have bought ships from france and british shipyards, the first Sino-Japanese war would have been very different indeed.

 

[Projekt 919]

In addition to all the other things I have mentioned it would be nice if the tecnology on a ship you bought you would pick up after, say 8 years if you hadn't yet figured it out for yourself. it still doesn't mean you have the capabilities to build it, but you know how to if you aquire the needed shipbuilding facilities.

 

[Orinsul]

I asked about this

King said No

in one of the DDs

 

[Projekt 919]

I asked about this

King said No

in one of the DDs

Could you provide a link? I really do believe this would be a huge boost to the game and its not like a negotiations tab where the AI will trade with each other putting them way ahead of you. I'm not trying to be annoying or disruptive to the forums, and all respect to king and Johan, but it was just my thought that this would make playing as a larger unciv or a medium country much more entertaining. BTW thank you, if thier really is no chance of this happening i would hate to be discussing this pointlessly. However, I would like to see thier reasoning on this one. (thus the link) i don't care wat the reason is i would just like to see one.....