Shipbuilding issues

[fastfreddie77]

And thats why I wrote

So you have a system "like research slots" for ship building. Just some slost for bigger ones, and some more for smaller ones.
The dockyard would be "seperated" form the current production like in the picture above for the whole country..
Or you get an indicator at each ship production of the free dockyards in the current production system.

And we have already dy and naval base as building in the game. So all we need at hand.
So big dy and nb = big production and civil supply port.
Only big nb = only civil, only dy = only military.
The amount of lvl 10 dy in regions would allow for amount of yamato size ships.
Lvl 9 dy allow for usual BB/CV and so on..
3 regions with lvl 9 dy = 3 BB "slots", 3 BB size ships allowed at the same time.
Modifier for smaller ships would round that system up.
So for each lvl 9 dy you could also build 1,5x the size below, and another 1,5x the size below that and so on.
That way you could still build more smaller ships with the limitation of dy in regions and not provinces anymore.
?

Yes that would separate shipping ports and dockyards while probably being better for the AI. Last thing I want to see is a 3rd world country building a BB when all its resources should be in other areas.

 

[Denkt]

I would like to know what do you, the ones against changing the current system, really want.

Maybe just let it be like how the developers have designed it

 

[Alwar]

Maybe just let it be like how the developers have designed it

But thats completly illogical. I've explained several times the problems the system have right now, problems that become huge once you go multiplayer and everyone that can will exploit.

 

[Zaku]

But thats completly illogical. I've explained several times the problems the system have right now, problems that become huge once you go multiplayer and everyone that can will exploit.

I don't want to be rude, but I want HOI4 to be designed by experienced game designers rather then some random dude on the internet. Especially considering multiplayer balance.

 

[chemonaut]

the US..., they can start getting newly constructed replacement ships back in the water much faster than historically, thus minimising the advantage of a successful Axis strategy.

Any idea on what the Japanese dockyard numbers and production would be compared to the US?

 

[jamesd]

Any idea on what the Japanese dockyard numbers and production would be compared to the US?

Sorry I don't know what's in the game, but we will find out more about Japan's capabilities in the next DD.

@Axe99 would be the best person to ask regarding actual capabilities as he's compiled a spread sheet listing all ships produced during the war. I think he found that US tonnage constructed was greater than the rest of the world combined and Germany actually produced more than Japan. I'm guessing that US production capability would be 5 times that of the Japanese.

 

[chemonaut]

Awesome. Quite literally thats got some awe.

 

[Axe99]

Any idea on what the Japanese dockyard numbers and production would be compared to the US?

Sorry I don't know what's in the game, but we will find out more about Japan's capabilities in the next DD.

@Axe99 would be the best person to ask regarding actual capabilities as he's compiled a spread sheet listing all ships produced during the war. I think he found that US tonnage constructed was greater than the rest of the world combined and Germany actually produced more than Japan. I'm guessing that US production capability would be 5 times that of the Japanese.

It's a tiny bit rough, as I haven't filtered out the classes that were being built across the game start date, but assuming these aren't going to swing the analysis too far one way or another. For ship types included in HoI, for classes whose first vessel was commissioned in 1937 or later (IRL, even destroyers often took longer than 12 months to build, so a 1937 launch date means classes the majority of whose production occurs during the time frame), Japan produced 0.85 million tons of ships, compared with the US' 3.76. On CVs alone, Japan produced 334,200 tons to the US' 994,400 (which is actually pretty impressive, if you consider the differences in industrial capacity).

However, and this is a huge however, HoI4 doesn't include all types of warship (HoI4's ship types cover less than 50 per cent of the tonnage of fighting ships used during the conflict), and the big exclusions are amphibious warfare ships (amphibious warfare ships combined come to 6.9 million tons of shipping), of which the US built the vast majority. If you compare overall 'fighting' ship production (so amphibious warfare ships such as attack transports, LSTs and LCVPs, as well as CVEs, escorts (of which Japan actually built 188,000 odd tons of, even if she was not that great at using them) and mine warfare ships), Japan's total production increases to 1.7 million tons, while the US' increases to 12.9 million, or 7.3 times Japan's production. Even the UK produced just over twice as many tons of fighting ship as Japan. Once CVEs are included in carrier capacity, Japan's 494,200 tons produced doesn't look quite as scary compared with the US' 2,347,700 (the US lend-leased a few hundred thousands tons of these to the UK under lend-lease, but if we're just looking at production capacity, they should come under the US' side of the ledger).

Japan doesn't start that badly though - counting ship classes where the first vessel was completed in 1936 or earlier, Japan has 1.2 million tons of warship to the US' 1.9 million (split across two oceans). There is a window at the start where Japan can compete with the USN, but once those US dockyards get moving, things get ugly quickly. If ship times are what we've seen so far, then it's likely that things will get ugly around a year sooner for Japan than it would have historically, which is what a few of us are concerned about.

Edit: PS - very good guess there @jamesd .

 

[Super Izumo]

Just reposting my last suggestion for those that didn't see it so people can say if that hate it or like it.

Currently the system is you start a production line for a ship and pick the location it is built at (as seen in WWW) and then you pick from your universal pool of dockyards.

So, why not make it so that the province you choose to build the ship at limits the number of dockyards you can assign to the amount in that province?

IE Province A has 8 dockyards in it so any production line or lines set to build there can only pull from that province's pool of dockyards instead of your grand total.

Leave the build times and such as they are but make it so it works like that. That would fix the issue because how many provinces at the start of '36 would be capable of doing this? Not that many (if any) and if you decide to build up provinces through National Focuses and Techs to get to that point (15 Dockyards) you are taking away from that Province's max number of Factories/Dockyards that can be built period. And not all Provinces would ever get to that point, it would be very hard to achieve.

It also serves to simulate your nation building your own large shipyards somewhere capable of taking on these build projects (IE like the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard which built a good number of ships during the war).

Would that system be fine for everyone? Tie ship production capability to the specific province it is being built in instead of relying on a global pool of Dockyards affecting every province?

That would fix the problems, you would really have to dedicate an entire province in the hopes of getting that kind of production speed and you would only get that speed in that province not elsewhere meaning that province becomes a target (in MP) for attack. Since the current system doesn't really put as much risk/reward in attacking/building dockyards.


TLDR: Limit the number of dockyards you can assign to a ship's production line to the number of dockyards in the province you choose to have the ship built at.

 

[Alwar]

I don't want to be rude, but I want HOI4 to be designed by experienced game designers rather then some random dude on the internet. Especially considering multiplayer balance.

You are not being rude, just annoying without even half reasoned or logical reply for at least 5 pages. I want to ask you for what reason this forum exist if not for debating and talk about the game, and what a better excuse to start a thread if not to debate the progression of the game.

If you take for granted that the devs will always be correct and perfect (even if paradox ones are usually very competent) for what reason you come here? Or why you even post in this thread if you obviously will not contribute? Are you a troll? Because either you are one or skipped high school maths, regarding some answers you gave in this thread.

 

[Alexander Suvorov]

Any idea on what the Japanese dockyard numbers and production would be compared to the US?

For the in game stats, check out the dev diary on carrier warfare for a good screen cap of Japan's naval production screen on Jan 1 1936.
10 dockyards for Japan. The screencap of the US shows 22 unused dockyards - total unknown.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...velopment-diary-11th-of-december-2015.896886/


This is obviously exactly the sort of thing that is subject to balance changes so keep that in mind.
edit: correction

 

[Zaku]

You are not being rude, just annoying without even half reasoned or logical reply for at least 5 pages. I want to ask you for what reason this forum exist if not for debating and talk about the game, and what a better excuse to start a thread if not to debate the progression of the game.

I made plenty of logical, reasonable replies all of which you dismissed. We can talk and debate about the game, but that includes me saying that I don't like your idea and that I like the original better. There are some better ideas then yours in the thread, but to be honest we don't know enough about the game to redesign such a huge feature. Game is in pre beta, so the numbers will change, but I think PDS did a good job of representing shipbuilding overall.

If you take for granted that the devs will always be correct and perfect (even if paradox ones are usually very competent) for what reason you come here? Or why you even post in this thread if you obviously will not contribute? Are you a troll? Because either you are one or skipped high school maths, regarding some answers you gave in this thread.

Calling me a troll, while insulting me in the meantime. Grow up buddy. There will be times when people will disagree with you, deal with it.
If disagreeing people are annoying you, then maybe you shouldn't ask us for our opinions.