Shipbuilding issues

[Alwar]

I think one of the biggest issues ive seen so far is the ship building mechanic. I cant start to explain how ridiculous sound to assign 15 dockyards to build a battleship in less than a year, because its complete ilogical. There is a big difference between building ships and building smaller things like tanks or guns.

You just cant adopt scale production techniques for ships because each proyect is always too different and too big. There are, of course, sometimes where you can ignore this fact, and that might be building U-boats or liberty ships or something like that, but something bigger than a destroyer or more complex than a liberty ship (that were reaaaaally simplified ships with old and easy to build engines) its just a no-no.

The best way to fix this would be making unable to assing more than one dockyard to each production line. You have a dockyard=> you can produce only one ship at the same time. There is a big issue of why japan converted some of their ships before completion, because they needed the dockyards free to build more carriers.

Shipyards number should be the bottleneck and big ships should be precious and time consuming to build.

This must come at the same time of a reevaluation of technologies years. Having battleships technologies in 1936 when those battleships were finished irl in 1936 wont work.

 

[Zaku]

I think one of the biggest issues ive seen so far is the ship building mechanic. I cant start to explain how ridiculous sound to assign 15 dockyards to build a battleship in less than a year, because its complete ilogical. There is a big difference between building ships and building smaller things like tanks or guns.

You just cant adopt scale production techniques for ships because each proyect is always too different and too big. There are, of course, sometimes where you can ignore this fact, and that might be building U-boats or liberty ships or something like that, but something bigger than a destroyer or more complex than a liberty ship (that were reaaaaally simplified ships with old and easy to build engines) its just a no-no.

The best way to fix this would be making unable to assing more than one dockyard to each production line. You have a dockyard=> you can produce only one ship at the same time. There is a big issue of why japan converted some of their ships before completion, because they needed the dockyards free to build more carriers.

Shipyards number should be the bottleneck and big ships should be precious and time consuming to build.

This must come at the same time of a reevaluation of technologies years. Having battleships technologies in 1936 when those battleships were finished irl in 1936 wont work.

If hoi4 would use historical build times for capital ships, you could never build enough as Germany to do a Sealion, let alone invade USA. The game's timeframe is too short for that.

 

[Alwar]

10 years is a lot of time. if you as germany plan to invade britain by land and not strangle it you have to focus on navy as soon as possible and do sacrifices. The same as other things. You want to do something, you have to sacrifice something else. If you dont respect this it wont even matter because britain or USA will be able to spew 3x times the ships they did irl. You wont be able to match usa anyway then.

Battleships or carriers take 2-3 years to build. If you start building them from 1936 you can have your first batch in 1939 and the second in 1942. Your third in 1945 and thats without counting production efficiency that might go that down to maybe 2 years or even 1. Essex class carriers were finished in 1 year 8 months.

 

[EntropyAvatar]

The best way to fix this would be making unable to assing more than one dockyard to each production line. You have a dockyard=> you can produce only one ship at the same time. There is a big issue of why japan converted some of their ships before completion, because they needed the dockyards free to build more carriers.

One dockyard is too slow. Battleships wouldn't even complete in the timeframe. However, limiting naval production lines to five dockyards (one row of dockyards instead of 3) does produce reasonable build times for big ships, and it doesn't change overall naval production capacity.

 

[Alwar]

One dockyard is too slow. Battleships wouldn't even complete in the timeframe. However, limiting naval production lines to five dockyards (one row of dockyards instead of 3) does produce reasonable build times for big ships, and it doesn't change overall naval production capacity.

Again, they will complete. They did irl. Timeframe is 10 years, you can focus on production and build them in 2-3 years. Plenty of time.

Want to build destroyers, submarines and cruisers? set several dockyards to each. They can specialice and gain the production efficiency, but not mass production like assigning several facilities to build the same ship.

Big ships take a lot of time and should be a big investment. If you can build those ships in some months, everyone will build them in masse and suddenly this game is Hearts of Battleships.

 

[EntropyAvatar]

Again, they will complete. They did irl. Timeframe is 10 years, you can focus on production and build them in 2-3 years. Plenty of time.

Say 15 dockyards builds a BB in 0.8 years. That's too fast. If you keep the production cost the same and restricted it to one dockyard, it would take 12 years to build a BB. That's too long. If you are allowed to use up to 5, then you get 2.4 years to make a BB. One dockyard doesn't have to strictly correspond to one slip.

 

[Zaku]

Again, they will complete. They did irl. Timeframe is 10 years, you can focus on production and build them in 2-3 years. Plenty of time.

It's more like 4+ years for a battleship.
Bismarck: Laid down: 1936, Comissioned: 1940 Four years
Tirpitz: Laid down 1936, Comissioned 1941 Five years
King George V: Laid down 1937 Jan, Comissioned 1940 dec. Four years
Littorio: Laid down: 1934, Comissioned 1940: 6 years
Yamato: 1937-1942, 5 years

If we go with the realistic build times the Allies would be unbeatable in sea.

 

[Alwar]

As i said, you obviously need to rebalance it. Its a no-brainer. And yes, dockyard slots was a BIG strategic issue when building ships. It was the reason japan couldnt build as many as ships as they wanted, it was the reason u-boats were build inland and only assembled in dockyards, it was the reason liberty ships were so simple, basic and bad design to be able to be build in so little time.

The whole point in dockyard was that one dockyard could build only one ship. Dockyard slots is all the point here.

 

[jamesd]

Say 15 dockyards builds a BB in 0.8 years. That's too fast. If you keep the production cost the same and restricted it to one dockyard, it would take 12 years to build a BB. That's too long. If you are allowed to use up to 5, then you get 2.4 years to make a BB. One dockyard doesn't have to strictly correspond to one slip.

Have to agree. I think the last WWW had 15 dockyards assigns to build Sharnhorst's and they were going to turn out 1.46 ships per year, or about 1 every 8 months. Limiting to 5 dockyards would make it one every 2 years which sounds about right for modern battleships. Wisconsin was laid down after the US was at war and still took more than 2 years to commission.

 

[jamesd]

It's more like 4+ years for a battleship.
Bismarck: Laid down: 1936, Comissioned: 1940 Four years
Tirpitz: Laid down 1936, Comissioned 1941 Five years
King George V: Laid down 1937 Jan, Comissioned 1940 dec. Four years
Littorio: Laid down: 1934, Comissioned 1940: 6 years
Yamato: 1937-1942, 5 years

If we go with the realistic build times the Allies would be unbeatable in sea.

To look at the quickest possible build times, look at US wartime construction speeds. As I mentioned above, Wisconsin, possibly the best all round battleship class of the war, took a bit over 2 years from being laid down to being commissioned. I'd suggest that slower pre-war build times could be attributed to dockyards being on peacetime 40 hour weeks or resources being split amongst many projects at once.

 

[Alwar]

It's more like 4+ years for a battleship.
Bismarck: Laid down: 1936, Comissioned: 1940 Four years
Tirpitz: Laid down 1936, Comissioned 1941 Five years
King George V: Laid down 1937 Jan, Comissioned 1940 dec. Four years
Littorio: Laid down: 1934, Comissioned 1940: 6 years
Yamato: 1937-1942, 5 years

If we go with the realistic build times the Allies would be unbeatable in sea.

yeah, how about no.

The time from launch to commision is the time it takes to fitting the ship to action. Its the same as the "training" with land troops. You can train a division in 0 days and they will be useless without even guns. It depends on the nation priorities and industrial capacity. Essex class carriers took 1 year and 8 months to build and fit (commisioned).

You literally defend the fantasy shipbuilding ideas and messy system so you can exploit it with big ships. Having 1 dockyard => 1 production lines works flawessly all around for every ship, even carriers except maybe battleships. So, lets dump a perfectly logical, historical and interesting game wise mechanic because doesnt give gratification fast enough. yeah, good idea.

 

[Zaku]

The time from launch to commision is the time it takes to fitting the ship to action. Its the same as the "training" with land troops. You can train a division in 0 days and they will be useless without even guns. It depends on the nation priorities and industrial capacity

So what's your point? I was just correcting you that building a BB on avarage needed not 2 but rather 4 years. (yes and training a crew is part of the building, because you can't really sail without a crew, can you?)

Essex class carriers took 1 year and 8 months to build and fit (commisioned).

I said BATTLESHIP.

You literally defend the fantasy shipbuilding ideas and messy system so you can exploit it with big ships. Having 1 dockyard => 1 production lines works flawessly all around for every ship, even carriers except maybe battleships. So, lets dump a perfectly logical, historical and interesting game wise mechanic because doesnt give gratification fast enough. yeah, good idea.

It's a video game. It is what it is, realism has nothing to do with it. Devs mentioned several times already that in their mind gameplay and balance comes before historical accuracy. I like the idea that I can build a fleet fast enough to actually use them. If we go by historical build times every ship tech after 1940 would be absolutely useless.

 

[Alwar]

So what's your point? I was just correcting you that building a BB on avarage needed not 2 but rather 4 years.



I said BATTLESHIP.



It's a video game. It is what it is, realism has nothing to do with it. Devs mentioned several times already that in their mind gameplay and balance comes before historical accuracy. I like the idea that I can build a fleet fast enough to actually use them. If we go by historical build times every ship tech after 1940 would be absolutely useless.

I) But you got corrected by Jamesd, Wisconsin was built in around 2 years.

II)And by nickpicking battleships, the most useless class of ships in the whole war, you ignore the positive implications to game play to all the other ships? nice logic

III) Its a videogame and when something have a messy mechanic its always better to stick to real world. If you can build battleships in 8 months as germany, how many hundred battleships will be able to field USA? do you really think a combat with hundred battleships in mid atlantic with your maybe 10 as germany will look fun? it wont. You wont challenge usa naval powress with numbers but tactical an strategic thinking. Not with 1 yard 1 production line and not certainly with current game mechanics.

Actually, with 1 yard => 1 production line you have more options vs usa than assigning 15 shipyards to one, because usa will have more shipyards than you will ever even if you control france and spain so they can rush much more battleships while having good production on screens and utility ships.

 

[Zaku]

To look at the quickest possible build times, look at US wartime construction speeds. As I mentioned above, Wisconsin, possibly the best all round battleship class of the war, took a bit over 2 years from being laid down to being commissioned. I'd suggest that slower pre-war build times could be attributed to dockyards being on peacetime 40 hour weeks or resources being split amongst many projects at once.

So basically they added more resources to speed up construction time. In game terms this means you add more dockyards to a line.

 

[Alwar]

So basically they added more resources to speed up construction time. In game terms this means you add more dockyards to a line.

No, you clearly dont understand how ships are made. You just cant build a shipyard and the ship will be build instantly. You need qualified personal, machining, foundries etc and most importantly, "how to". The ships you mentioned previously were made in shipyards in peacetime, without efficient organization due to lack of how to or with lack of resources.

In game you get that by runing a production line for enough time. That mechanic exist right now, you just need to tune it and rebalance to fix it for 1 dockyard per production line and everything will work fine.

 

[Zaku]

I) But you got corrected by Jamesd, Wisconsin was built in around 2 years.

Yes.

So basically they added more resources to speed up construction time. In game terms this means you add more dockyards to a line.

II)And by nickpicking battleships, the most useless class of ships in the whole war, you ignore the positive implications to game play to all the other ships? nice logic

What? You were the one who started talking about BBs in your OP. I just corrected you.

I think one of the biggest issues ive seen so far is the ship building mechanic. I cant start to explain how ridiculous sound to assign 15 dockyards to build a battleship in less than a year, because its complete ilogical. There is a big difference between building ships and building smaller things like tanks or guns.

Actually, with 1 yard => 1 production line you have more options vs usa than assigning 15 shipyards to one, because usa will have more shipyards than you will ever even if you control france and spain so they can rush much more battleships while having good production on screens and utility ships.

Construction speed with 1 yard is 12 years/ ship. As others have already mentioned around 5 would be 2 years. On the long run however it doesn't matter if you have 3 runs of 5(3 ships in 2 years), or 1 run of 15(same amount)

 

[griffor]

as long as the game is balanced i can give up on some historical things, as this is a game not a historic simulator.

 

[Alwar]

...

You are really obtuse, dont you? do you really think that with 1 yard you will still build at the rate of 12 years / ship? you cant think that maybe the numbers can change or something else?. Ill explain it to you a little more simple so you can understand.

1) you force 1 yard = 1 production line

2) you rebalance construction times to something more realistic. from 1,5 years to 6 years might be something good for battleships if you put there factors as: peace/ war time, industrial efforts/technology, production line eficiency, historical events like uboat prefabrication techniques etc.

3) you rebalance resources consumption to match the construction times.

The problem with assigning more than one dockyard to each production line is that industries and dockyard share the same slots and those slots are related to the size and how populous are those provinces. That means that because they share the same slots you just cant do that. If you could build several dockyards per slot, then maybe. Its not the case and its a LOT more codework to do that than just do what i just said.

 

[jamesd]

So basically they added more resources to speed up construction time. In game terms this means you add more dockyards to a line.

Yes, so the Germans might have only been using 2-3 dockyards per battleships pre war, while the US assigned 5 dockyards to Wisconsin.

Yes.
Construction speed with 1 yard is 12 years/ ship. As others have already mentioned around 5 would be 2 years. On the long run however it doesn't matter if you have 3 runs of 5(3 ships in 2 years), or 1 run of 15(same amount)

There is however a big difference in getting 1 battleship every 8 months (with 1 line of 15 dockyards) to getting 3 after 2 years (with 3 lines of 5). The high speed construction actually favours the allies with their higher building capabilities. If they suffer a strategic defeat, such as Pearl Harbour, they can start getting newly constructed replacement ships back in the water much faster than historically, thus minimising the advantage of a successful Axis strategy.

 

[Zaku]

Yes, so the Germans might have only been using 2-3 dockyards per battleships pre war, while the US assigned 5 dockyards to Wisconsin.

Yea, I agree with you we are on the same page. Assigning more dockyards will make it faster. What I'm confused about is not your point, but rather the OPs

There is however a big difference in getting 1 battleship every 8 months (with 1 line of 15 dockyards) to getting 3 after 2 years (with 3 lines of 5). The high speed construction actually favours the allies with their higher building capabilities. If they suffer a strategic defeat, such as Pearl Harbour, they can start getting newly constructed replacement ships back in the water much faster than historically, thus minimising the advantage of a successful Axis strategy.

I hear you, and that's a good point, I was just trying to explain to the OP why I think that limiting 1 dockyard to 1 line makes no sense. I know that 8 months is fast for a BB, but whatever, it's a game. I'm more concerned about the balance between the Axis/Allies then historical build times.