ship ugrading

[Trinitrotoluen]

Sorry if this has been brought up before but the search function keeps timing out on me.

The one thing I miss in HoI 2 is the inability to upgrade older ships. Therefore I suggest the following workaround to make upgrading somewhat possible and older units a bit more viable.

Add more brigades for ships. Maybe an anti-aircraft brigade for BBs, BCs and cruisers while DDs could get improved anti-submarine weapons and equipment. Newer brigades themselves could be upgraded via advances in the naval doctrine section and would indirectly improve ship stats.

Since the AI can and does attach CAGs to CVs it should (in theory) be able to handle this.

 

[unmerged(47341)]

yep

I like the idea. In the current game I just put all my old ships together as the "old-junk" fleet and create a new fleet with ships with at least upgrades of the year 1941 or higher with some super battleships (BB-7).
And I don't care if the old junk fleet is blown out of the water. This should not be like this.

 

[Enravota]

i think ships shou;d stay in dock 'till they are upgraded though.

 

[Mik1984]

Good Idea, a limited possibilities of upgrading would be nice. Those ships would not be as effective as the newest productions, but still more than they were before.

 

[Trinitrotoluen]

i think ships shou;d stay in dock 'till they are upgraded though.

That would be good but I don't know if the AI will be able to handle that. It usually doesn't even let its ships stay in port long enough for them to repaired let alone the time required for an upgrade.

 

[Mik1984]

That would be good but I don't know if the AI will be able to handle that. It usually doesn't even let its ships stay in port long enough for them to repaired let alone the time required for an upgrade.

Like bumping with head towards a wall: AI sucks. :wacko:

 

[Arilou]

Great idea, dunno if it's too much work though.

 

[unmerged(46319)]

Like bumping with head towards a wall: AI sucks. :wacko:

I am looking forward to the AI in the new patch...........

 

[unmerged(46341)]

Capital Ships should not be upgradeable. The only time in history that Capital Ships have been upgraded was when there was either sentimental reasons for keeping the ship, or because a treaty prohibiting building new capital ships. Upgrading them would take just as long as building a new one, because you are essentially ripping it apart and putting it back together.

Upgrading makes sense, however, for screens as they represent several ships, and the upgrade process represents cycling new ships in, and old ships out.

 

[Msbon]

I don't know what you are thinking but all capital ships have been upgraded at one time or another to include more or less AA, better electronics (Radar for example), angled flight decks after the war for carriers, improved damage control equipment and other things that the game doesn't need to show like crew habitability. Suprisingly most things like aa and radar don't require the ship to be "ripped apart and put back together." You show yourself to be quite un-informed on this.

 

[mld0806]

Ship upgrades of the sort you are discussing here are handled via the doctrine tree. Some examples:

Hunter Killer Group Doctrine

component = { # Basic Destroyer ASW Weaponry
	  id = 8134
	  name = TECH_CMP_ND_13_4_NAME
	  type = naval_artillery
	  difficulty = 8
	 }

Commerce Defense Doctrine

component = { # Improved Destroyer ASW Weaponry
	  id = 8201
	  name = TECH_CMP_ND_20_1_NAME
	  type = naval_artillery
	  difficulty = 8
	 }

Convoy Task Force Coordination

 component = { # Improved Aerial ASW Weaponry
	  id = 8254
	  name = TECH_CMP_ND_25_4_NAME
	  type = aircraft_testing
	  difficulty = 8
	 }[/quote]

Naval Firepower Doctrine

component = { # Basic Armament
	  id = 8024
	  name = TECH_CMP_ND_2_4_NAME
	  type = naval_artillery
	  difficulty = 8
	 }

The benefits are in increased positioning (which governs chance to fire) and mission efficiencies (which governs actual combat statistics used). Researching doctrines INSTANTLY, and WITHOUT INVESTMENT upgrades ALL of your ships with the new techs. Every time you see a blue icon in a doctrine tech, think "ship upgrades" or "coordinating non-combat aircraft upgardes".

 

[Trinitrotoluen]

I know that the doctrine tech tree improves positioning, convoy defense efficiency, etc. and I want to use it to model additional effects.

The problem is that some important effects like improved AA capabilities for older ships are missing. Ships will only have the AA values they started out with and you can't model the constant AA gun upgrading that happened throughout the war.

The main purpose of this suggestion is to make the older ships more viable. Currently you are better off disbanding your starting navy (with the exception of carriers) and rebuild it from scratch which is plain wrong IMO.

 

[unmerged(46341)]

I know that the doctrine tech tree improves positioning, convoy defense efficiency, etc. and I want to use it to model additional effects.

The problem is that some important effects like improved AA capabilities for older ships are missing. Ships will only have the AA values they started out with and you can't model the constant AA gun upgrading that happened throughout the war.

The main purpose of this suggestion is to make the older ships more viable. Currently you are better off disbanding your starting navy (with the exception of carriers) and rebuild it from scratch which is plain wrong IMO.

Not really. Older ships were generally de-comissioned. In fact, older ships were/are almost always 100% de-comissioned. Don't disband you navy though, unless you have severe supply issues. Every ship counts.

 

[unmerged(11633)]

AA and anti-submarine were what was upgraded regularly. It was relatively easy to add lots of AA guns and Sonar, radar etc to old ships, even if you couldn't add bigger guns. Someone The idea of an AA brigade attachable to ships other sounds like a good idea.

 

[Ex Mudder]

AA and anti-submarine were what was upgraded regularly. It was relatively easy to add lots of AA guns and Sonar, radar etc to old ships, even if you couldn't add bigger guns. Someone The idea of an AA brigade attachable to ships other sounds like a good idea.

Agree. AA brigades for capital ships, ASW for escorts. Should be simple enough for the AI to handle. After all, I seem to recall that those 50 obsolete destroyers the US gave the UK were extensively refitted to get them combat capable, and were probably quite better at their jobs (after being upgraded to 1940 standards) than they were in 1918, but not as good as the newest models DDs with the same upgrades built in.

 

[mld0806]

Agree. AA brigades for capital ships, ASW for escorts. Should be simple enough for the AI to handle. After all, I seem to recall that those 50 obsolete destroyers the US gave the UK were extensively refitted to get them combat capable, and were probably quite better at their jobs (after being upgraded to 1940 standards) than they were in 1918, but not as good as the newest models DDs with the same upgrades built in.

Which is quite well modeled in increases for Convoy Escort and ASW task efficiencies as new ASW technology is researched as part of the doctrine techs, IMHO.

 

[Trinitrotoluen]

Which is quite well modeled in increases for Convoy Escort and ASW task efficiencies as new ASW technology is researched as part of the doctrine techs, IMHO.

Sure but it doesn't model the AA upgrades. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned DDs in the initial post as they do get something out of naval research while the other ships only get better positioning and continue to be helpless vs. aircraft/CAGs.

Currently the best strategy is to disband your level I and II ships (except for CVs) and rebuild a navy from scratch which is just plain wrong IMO.

 

[jhhowell]

Sure but it doesn't model the AA upgrades. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned DDs in the initial post as they do get something out of naval research while the other ships only get better positioning and continue to be helpless vs. aircraft/CAGs.

Currently the best strategy is to disband your level I and II ships (except for CVs) and rebuild a navy from scratch which is just plain wrong IMO.

I agree that AA upgrades would be good to see. My thought would be to add those to the radar techs - radar helped a lot with AA, and it would give people a reason to research the techs. It should also most benefit the nations that historically had good naval AA, the US and UK. Alternately, one could tie ship AA bonuses to the static AA techs. This may actually be something players can mod themselves rather than waiting for 1.3...

Your second claim is wildly exaggerated, and I don't think it helps your argument. Level I and II ships are perfectly useful, just less capable than the newer models. DD-I still sink subs, the British BB-II horde can and often does single-handedly eliminate the German and Italian fleets, why not keep them around? Not to mention the fact that no nation in the game can build a US/UK size navy from scratch on a useful timescale, at best you could build up one or two task forces of modern ships (which is worth doing regardless) before war breaks out. The only ships I ever find worth scrapping are SS-I, and only because of the incredibly short range.

 

[mld0806]

The only ships I ever find worth scrapping are SS-I, and only because of the incredibly short range.

Minimal range, but minimal supply usage. You don't have to build them, you don't have to upgrade them, and they take 1/12 of an IC per day to supply. Even if you supply them from day one to 1941, you only spend 150 IC days on them. A new Medium Range sub costs 320 IC days. Anything they do can be seen as a "freebie". Plenty of range for costal use.

 

[Wyrm]

The only time in history that Capital Ships have been upgraded was when there was either sentimental reasons for keeping the ship, or because a treaty prohibiting building new capital ships. Upgrading them would take just as long as building a new one, because you are essentially ripping it apart and putting it back together.

Ships was and are CONSTANTLY beeing upgraded as new technology became available. Radar, ASW, AAA, targeting systems, additional armor plating, improved engines. It surprises me that they abandoned the refit-system of HOI1 when it comes to ships. It actually made sense.

I've never even heard of an upgrade when the entire ship was ripped apart and put together again. Upgrading ships involves REUSING the hull, not recycling it.