Ship types are not balanced & a proposed solution

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KiwiNoob

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Excluding the current corvette evade exploit (/bug) ship types currently becomes instantly pointless the moment the next size up is available.

Battleship > 2 Cruisers > 4 Destroyers > 8 Corvettes

The reason is simply that while the amount of firepower in each class doubles, at the same time HP and armor doubles and larger ships fit larger guns.

So what we end up with is:

+Smaller: Better evasion

+Bigger: More effective HP as a result of better default armor
+Bigger: Longer range on the larger guns. As mid game L mounts (lance/arc) offer up to 90/100% accuracy there is no benefit to smaller mounts

Lets assume that those two balance each other out (for small scale battles).

Now a single BB will maintain it's full firepower up until the moment it is destroyed. This cannot be said for groups of smaller ships. Half way through a battle between a BB and 4 x DD the BB is still putting out 100% of it's firepower but the DD fleet is now only fighting with 50% of its original strength. By the end of the battle the 4 x DD will be destroyed but the BB will still be on ~30% of it's original health. End result is that the BB side has lost absolutely nothing while the DD side has lost all it's ships.

Larger numbers of ships actually result in even worse losses for the side with the smaller ships especially if they have shorter range weapons than the BB's. The range of the BB weapons mean that by the middle of the engagement all of the BB's are firing while a smaller portion of the smaller ship fleet are in weapon range.

End result is that an all BB fleet with arc throwers or lances will decimate anything in the game and will often take absolutely no losses. Even against the unbidden a single 30k stack of all BB's wiped their spawning system clean along with all 4 of their fleets than came to help and I lost only 5 ships (typically the one at the front of my flying V in each fleet combat)

It's a simple bigger = better and that = bad.



What I suggest is that ships are specialized for certain roles. In most cases ships can be fitted to counter classes above or below their level but in either case they need to become ineffective against the option not chosen:

Battleships (BB) are deep space battering rams. Most of their weapons are only effective against stationary structures such as starbases and defense stations.

Cruisers (CA) have survivability and firepower but lack the ability to cope with smaller targets if unsupported and will struggle with large structures such as starbases (assuming stellaris stops building starbases out of wet bog roll) and defense stations.

Destroyers (DD) are the bread and butter of a fleet but are also stuck between a rock and a hard place. If fitted for anti-FS duty they will be at a disadvantage against cruisers but as they mount more weapons that are effective against cruisers they become vulnerable to corvettes

Corvettes (FS) are designed to engage other corvettes and destroyers. While not individually powerful if a fleets destroyers and corvettes are able to gain supremacy over the other fleet FS/DD's then they are able to attack the remaining enemy ships (CA/BB) with impunity.


To achieve this you need to place weapon sizes between ship sizes so that each class only has two options. Up or down. If something is poor against another class the reason is either accuracy (acc) or very low damage (dmg):

XL - Good vs stations, average vs BB (acc), useless vs CA/DD/FS (acc)​
Battleship
L - Good vs BB, average vs CA, poor vs stations (dmg), useless vs DD/FS (acc)
H - (Hanger) Use depends entirely on whats in there​
Cruiser
M - Good vs CA/DD, poor vs BB (dmg) & FS (acc), terrible vs stations (dmg)​
Destroyer
S - Good vs FS, average vs DD, poor vs CA (dmg), terrible vs BB (dmg), useless vs stations (dmg)​
Corvette


All classes
PD - Good vs FS/Fighters, poor vs DD (dmg), useless vs CA/BB/stations (dmg)​



Now we have a situation where every ship has a role and every ship is needed but the importance is bottom up. A fleet can still be extremely effective (in fleet on fleet engagements) without battleships but a fleet without corvettes will be massacred.

A fleet must have corvettes because if one side loses the battle at the FS level then their DD's will now be fighting the other fleets destroyers and corvettes. They will probably lose shortly thereafter and so on up the food chain until the BB's are swarmed and dont have the weapons to hit back.

Ships can be fitted to counter those below it but on the whole this is slightly less effective than spending the money on more of the lower tier ship. As an example 10,000 minerals spent on CA's fit out to destroy DD's will be slightly less effective than 10,000 minerals spent on DD's fit out to destroy DD's. This doesn't mean that higher tier ships are useless though. Your CA's will still be needed as if the enemy fleet contains BB's masquerading as CV's (Carriers) then without CA's you wont have the punch to kill them.

This means that fleets will usually consist of mostly corvettes and destroyers, some cruisers and only a very small number of battleships - just the way it should be. Battleships will be needed predominately for breaking enemy strong points, or as carriers. In defense a fleet that forgoes battleships and focuses more on corvettes and destroyers would be more effective.

A lot of this could probably be handled through changes to the ship cores, hit points, damage and accuracy of various ships, modules and weapons. It could almost be modded in except that in order for this to work the battle AI has to pick targets much better than it currently does. The whole thing falls down if a CA is constantly shooting it's L mount weapons at corvettes with a 1% chance to hit.

Anyway - I'm going to stop writing because I've spent way to long on this :)
 
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Bob_Herzog

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Sorry you initial assumption that corvette swarms are not OP is plain wrong. You are right for certain parts of the game where you can't get to real high evasion levels with the corvettes. In that part of the game destroyers a a good counter for them and then cruisers for destroyers and so on. But lets look at what is possible from somewhere in midgame (battlecomputer and engines are techs you can max out comparably early).

The best evasion possible is somewhere in the range of 95%. 40 engine, 20 battlecomputer, 10 from spaceport modules so a base value of 70 which gets increased by 5% Amoebae Research, 15% Admiral and 15% from a special project your science ship can find = 94,5%. Even weapons with 90% (95%) would only hit one of those with a probability of 5% (5.2%).

But ok for the special project and one of the spaceport modules you need the luck to get it. So lets see without those Base value 65 and 20% increase gets you to 78% evasion. Still pretty hard for the battleships to hit those corvettes and in contrast to popular belive one hit by one battleship turret won't kill such a corvette (esspecially is it too gets shields or hull increasing modules).

So it all comes down to whether battleships can last under the fire from the corvettes. But here you assume wrong. You say that the initial default armor value helps battleships. You ignore the obvious answer for that: Plasma weapons (=100% ignore of any armor). And no shields are no counter for that since they do not offer damage reduction to energy weapons but only extra HP with some regeneration.

Next your assumption that battleships will retain more of their firepower for longer and thus have an edge. That would be true if big battles would be divided neatly into several small ones and thus each battleship only had to deal with 8 corvettes (then all you would have to do is get high enough shield or hull regeneration and it would be impossible for the corvettes). But what is happening is focused fire and 400 corvettes just can focus fire much better than a much smaller group of battleships (that do miss most of their targets). So in reality of battles the battleships die much quicker than the corvettes do at the end of the day.

To sum it up big ships just can't deal with swarms of anti armor corvettes. But that isn't nessearily a bad thing the biggest ship does not nessearily need to be good at killing the smallest one. The answer of the game should be destroyers to hunt down the corvettes and that works until one manages to leave 70% evasion behind with the corvettes. Currently the only way to deal with a plasma corvette swarm with evasion beyond 70% is a corvette swarm.

Against the AI i have never run into a sittuation where a plasma corvette swarm did not perform. Against other players autocannon corvettes can be a counter (and admittably high armor battleships could be a counter to those) but just barley so. Both sides lose a lot in a battle swarm agains swarm with nearly equal numbers & tech.
 
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KiwiNoob

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So tell me - how often have you come across an AI empire with a swarm of high evasion corvettes? Because if the answer is 'lots of times' we can have that discussion. If the answer is 'none' then you're off topic. The very first thing I said in this post was that this excluded late game multi-player. Since the corvette swarm is a player only concoction it's safe to assume that in single player you're not going to come across it very often. And even the (current) existence of the evasion corvettes doesn't counter the argument because even PDS said the evasion was never meant to get that high.

Besides, you've totally missed the point. You're suggesting that a broken mechanic (the ship types) is not broken because a corvette exploit is even more broken. This thread isn't about facing off an all BB exploit fleet against an evasion corvette exploit fleet. It's about addressing the ship tiers and lack of purpose/roles.

I would dearly like to disagree on several more of your points (not suggesting that all BB > evasion corvettes as they currently stand since I haven't done the math, just that I think several of your assumptions are incorrect) but as I specifically excluded the evasion corvettes... must...stay...focused.


As stated in the OP - for general game play such as a SP game or a MP game up to late game tech (possible a whole MP game after the patch) a fleet of only BB's is unstoppable, suffers virtually no attrition from battles and is a symptom of the problem that bigger always = better.

In a way the evasion corvettes also serve to highlight the issue. The ship types as they stand do not counter one another or serve any particular purpose, it's entirely a case of finding the most efficient design and mass producing it. That's why both the fleets mentioned are extremes. One is all battleships, the other is all corvettes. Bringing anything else along is just a waste. People add in a variety of ship types simply for role playing purposes and not for combat efficiency.

If the ships actually filled roles and by design countered one another then it would produce a situation where all ships are required in varying amounts and fleets must be built bottom up, with corvettes and destroyers as the foundation.
 
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Bob_Herzog

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The AI loves to go with many corvettes and sometimes it get's lucky and manages to construct them in a way that they hit quite high evasion (have not yet encountered one useing the theoretical maximum but one time it was close only the wrong Admiral blocking it). The saveing grace in SP for high HP & high Armor fleets is that the AI usually is quite random in their choice of weapons.

Even with only 70% evasion one would have to actually test whether corvettes wouldn't be a valuable counter for battleships. They still could use armor ignoring wepons and while the 90% accuracy and the high DPS of the late game large turrets sound nasty on first glance it could turn out different in detail. High DPS does not equal high rate of fire after all. Thus a corvette swarm that faces considerably more loses could force battleships to waste a lot of their firepower on overkills.
 

KiwiNoob

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Firstly. When I said the extra armor I'm only talking about the default armor. I'm not suggesting people add armor to their BB. Either shields or extra HP/regen are almost always preferable. Under normal circumstances I would say go for the regen as HP cant be countered and with the right ship, aura and admiral the amount of HP that can be restored is staggering. Unfortunately the combat AI has a fetish for shields and will often drill down the shields on all (most) enemy ships before starting on their HP so shields may turn out to be the better (gamey) option.

Again though - still missing the point. The ship types should have roles and all remain useful throughout the game.

It should not be a simple calculation to min/max the dps + tank of one particular ship and then produce only that ship.
 

Adrik Thorsen

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Actually, with the right mix, you can get 100% evasion on corvettes - and that's where the imbalance lies.
Amoeba Observation Empire Perk for +5%
Top Engines for another +15%
60% base
Trickster Admiral for another =15%
Psionic Combat Module for another 10%
Result: 105% Evasion
 

KiwiNoob

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*sigh* This is not a thread about the corvette evasion exploit (/bug). I'll edit the opening paragraph of the thread to reduce the confusion.

It does not matter if it's corvettes, destroyers, cruisers or battleships the problem is that the current game just gets people to min/max a single design then produce a crap load of it.

The different ship types (/roles of those ships) need to counter one another as much as the different weapons. All ship types should remain relevant throughout the whole game.
 

Hicpotboy

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I'd prefer less role based, and a more complex damage model for ship combat. Make those components get damaged! That giant battlecruiser with tons of guns helps you nothing if it has no armor or shields, and the first shots take out the reactors. That would mean you'd WANT additional redundancy in your military ships, so to take into account the probable chance of something getting through and damaging your critical defenses. No power = no shields and no weapons = dead ship.