Shia Islamic Schools

[Rognvaldr19]

I'm specifically talking about giving them schools of theology like the Sunni have, who have a choice between Mutazilite and Ashari.

With Shia Muslims, I reckon they should be given three choices, between the Imamiyyah (Twelver), Isma‘ilism (Sevener) and Zaidiyyah (Fiver) as traits they can pick.

Wikipedia link to the Twelver

Wikipedia link to the Sevener

Wikipedia link to the Fiver

Thoughts?

 

[Thure]

Aren't the Zaidi already in the game as Shia heresy? Really... all this groups are more like own branches/heresies than traits.

 

[Rognvaldr19]

Aren't the Zaidi already in the game as Shia heresy? Really... all this groups are more like own branches/heresies than traits.

You might be thinking of the Zikri heresy for Sunni Muslims.

Heresies are Zikri & Yazidi for Sunni and Hurufi & Druze for the Shiite.

You could say that about the Ashari and Mutazilite when you read about them.

 

[starwarsfan541]

You might be thinking of the Zikri heresy for Sunni Muslims.

Heresies are Zikri & Yazidi for Sunni and Hurufi & Druze for the Shiite.

You could say that about the Ashari and Mutazilite when you read about them.

Well the branches of Shia even have different heads so they should be separate imo

 

[elvain]

I think that Islam in general should be reworked.

For instance the main (sunni) law schools should IMHO be introduced and represented as something like hinduist rites.

As for the shiite schools mentioned in the OP. They are something in between. Representing them via trait wouldn't be very good, IMHO, they were more than personal thing and, as correctly pointed out, they even had different heads. OTOH, making them contesting heresies of Shia would make them too different from each other.
Perhaps the hinduist model would fit them the best too (just like the sunni law schools)

 

[Noxatrox]

The problem with having the Shia branches as heresies is that I don't think that they would ever holy war each other. Is there really that much hostility between Twelver and Ismaili? I wouldn't expect anything more than a minor opinion penalty, which the conflicting schools mechanic already implements well.

If the problem is with calling them different "schools of thought" when they are actually different branches, then just rename the mechanic to "branches of thought" instead. I think the only problem with this idea is for the earlier start dates when I'm not sure if the divide between Twelver and Ismaili actually existed (not entirely sure?), but one could just unlock the mechanic after a certain date has passed.

Now I may be completely wrong on this next part (feel free to correct me if I am), but one of the differences between Sunnis and Shiites is that the former see the Caliph as both political and spiritual leader while the latter sees the Caliph as only a political one? For Shiites the spiritual leader is the Imam who must be descended from Ali. Imams I don't believe are actually represented in the game, possibly because Paradox didn't want to offend either branch. But a Twelver in the 1066 start date wouldn't have a problem with seeing the Ismaili in Cairo as a Caliph and political leader?

 

[starwarsfan541]

The problem with having the Shia branches as heresies is that I don't think that they would ever holy war each other. Is there really that much hostility between Twelver and Ismaili? I wouldn't expect anything more than a minor opinion penalty, which the conflicting schools mechanic already implements well.

If the problem is with calling them different "schools of thought" when they are actually different branches, then just rename the mechanic to "branches of thought" instead. I think the only problem with this idea is for the earlier start dates when I'm not sure if the divide between Twelver and Ismaili actually existed (not entirely sure?), but one could just unlock the mechanic after a certain date has passed.

Now I may be completely wrong on this next part (feel free to correct me if I am), but one of the differences between Sunnis and Shiites is that the former see the Caliph as both political and spiritual leader while the latter sees the Caliph as only a political one? For Shiites the spiritual leader is the Imam who must be descended from Ali. Imams I don't believe are actually represented in the game, possibly because Paradox didn't want to offend either branch. But a Twelver in the 1066 start date wouldn't have a problem with seeing the Ismaili in Cairo as a Caliph and political leader?

Twelver did not accept the fatimid caliphs

 

[Thure]

The problem with having the Shia branches as heresies is that I don't think that they would ever holy war each other. Is there really that much hostility between Twelver and Ismaili? I wouldn't expect anything more than a minor opinion penalty, which the conflicting schools mechanic already implements well.

If the problem is with calling them different "schools of thought" when they are actually different branches, then just rename the mechanic to "branches of thought" instead. I think the only problem with this idea is for the earlier start dates when I'm not sure if the divide between Twelver and Ismaili actually existed (not entirely sure?), but one could just unlock the mechanic after a certain date has passed.

Now I may be completely wrong on this next part (feel free to correct me if I am), but one of the differences between Sunnis and Shiites is that the former see the Caliph as both political and spiritual leader while the latter sees the Caliph as only a political one? For Shiites the spiritual leader is the Imam who must be descended from Ali. Imams I don't believe are actually represented in the game, possibly because Paradox didn't want to offend either branch. But a Twelver in the 1066 start date wouldn't have a problem with seeing the Ismaili in Cairo as a Caliph and political leader?

Twelver didn't accept the Fatimids. There was a huge difference between tweelver Shia and Ismaili Shia and they didn't see each other as true believers.

 

[raistlin_wizard]

There can't be twelvers when the Old Gods start starts the same year the twelveth imam was born. What if he lives and has descencendants? Shia Islam needs more flavour, but some things are hard to implement.

 

[Noxatrox]

Twelver did not accept the fatimid caliphs

Twelver didn't accept the Fatimids. There was a huge difference between tweelver Shia and Ismaili Shia and they didn't see each other as true believers.

Ah okay then, thank you both for the clarification. Sorry about that, I hope I didn't offend anyone! I guess just ignore that last paragraph I wrote. I do have one more question though: so I know that Twelver and Ismaili didn't each other as true believers, but (and I'm just asking here, not insinuating) would you feel that divide would be enough to justify waging holy war on one another in the name of god (the same way Shiites can holy war Christians and Sunnis)? Or would it be more like a small or moderate opinion penalty? Because Catholics and Orthodox in the game have a major divide between them, but can't wage holy war on one another unless the Great Schism is mended. Shiites can holy war Sunnis, but I saw that as mostly because in the 1066 start dates, the Fatimids and Seljuks were major rivals. And in the earlier start dates, Shiites were under major persecution by the Abbasids.

There can't be twelvers when the Old God start starts the same year the twelve imam was born. What if he lives and has descencendants? Shia Islam needs more flavour, but some things are hard to implement.

There is also some problem with the Shia uprising even IMO. It spawns a 6 year old boy of a new dynasty who is descended from the prophet Muhammad (through Fatima and Ali I assume) as the Caliph along with the event army. I assume this was meant to model the rise of the Safavid dynasty, and makes sense for start dates after 1066. The only problem being that the Fatimids rarely fall in the 1066 start as they historically did. The uprising doesn't make much sense in the earlier start dates, however. As you mentioned, the twelve Iman was born in the 867 start and his ancestor predecessors are present in the 769 start date. So why wouldn't the uprising declare him the leader, instead of a random 6 year old? Funnily enough, the uprising tends to trigger more in the 769 and 867 starts as no Caliphate exists in them.