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Paper_hat

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I actually did the math on this last night on tank fights, it was pretty fun! All numbers pertaining to hits to kill are averages, and should not be taken to be deterministic.

So let's step back and get the big picture. First thing to keep in mind is that every 100m you close, you add +1 AP to the shot. The other thing to know is that since the penetration table proceeds as a quartic function in terms of AP-AV, it's a fairly simple function so using 10AP against 5AV is the same as 15AP vs 10AV.

So, going abstract for a bit, divide the main cannon's range by 10, add that to the FAV and the given AP value, and you have a total "Tank Value (TV)." You can do the math yourself, but two tanks of equal TV, regardless of what their other stats look like, will be evenly matched. In this case, the Jumbo and Panther D wind up having equal TVs. At 1000m, both have 0% chance to penetrate. However, if you close to 500m (which is closer to historical tank engagement ranges, BTW), both have AP-AV=4, which corresponds to a 42% penetration chance, or 2.38 hits to kill. They have the same accuracy and ROF, so they're very evenly matched.

That's just comparing even tanks. If you're comparing uneven tanks at the maximum effective range, the weaker tank will take 50 hits to kill (2% penetration), while the stronger tank will take at most 12.5 (8% penetration). If you close the distance, however, the hits to kill converges. As an example: the M4A3(76)W and Jumbo cost the same, but have a difference in TV of 6. At the maximum effective range for the 76 to damage the Jumbo (600m), the 76 will, again, take 50 hits to kill the Jumbo, while the Jumbo will be at 2.38, or 21 times faster, aka the 76 will need 21x numerical superiority (ignoring the effects of morale damage, which will be substantial in such a scenario). If, however, the 76 closes to 300m, the number of hits to kill drops to 3.7, while the Jumbo's drops to 1.2, reducing the ratio to 3:1. There are two practical lessons from this demonstration: even small increases in TV can lead to massively different outcomes, and if you are using a weaker tank close the distance before engaging.

Now, on to cost. If you divide the number of points by TV, you get inverse efficiency (which is slightly more intuitive than efficiency). The average of all open beta tanks at this time is to spend 4.43 points per TV point. The Jumbo and M5A1 are significant outliers, clocking in at 3.64 and 3.75 respectively (the Jumbo is the most effective 'proper' tank - the SDKFZ 250/9 has both an AP and AV value so I put it in, and it spends 2.5 points per TV). The Panthers are also significant outliers: The Panther D at 5.71, the Panther G at 6.51, and the Bef. Panther at 6.36. In other words, the Jumbo is more efficient than the Panther family. Put more practically, you can take 3 Jumbos for 540 points, and 2 Panther Ds for 480. All else being equal, the Jumbos will defeat the Panther Ds dramatically.

However, let's consider Panther Gs vs Jumbos (TV1-TV0=1). If engagement ranges are left at max (800m) and the budget set to 560 points, 3 Jumbos will take 100 average hits (33 hit-volley-equivalents) to take out 2 Panther Gs, while the Panther Gs need 37.5 (18.75). So, advantage Panther Gs. If the Jumbos push to 300m, then they need 3.44 average hits (or 1 hit-volley-equivalent), while the Panther Gs need 4.17 (2). This ignores that Panther Gs have 7 accuracy, while the Jumbos have 5 (I don't know the accuracy tables).

MASSIVE CAVEATS

All else is never equal.
For one thing, divisions have different cost incomes (which actually further distorts the Jumbo's advantage). For another, the number of tanks possible to deploy varies wildly - the 3AD can field 6 Jumbos, while the HJ can field 4 Panther Ds, 2 Bef. Panthers, and 18 Panther Gs. For yet another, none of the Jumbos are veteran.

This analysis ignores side shots, morale damage, accuracy, veteran status, leadership, etc. All of which is important.

An important thing to stress from this, however, is that higher TVs are a lot more forgiving. While the 3 Jumbos can close to 300m and defeat the 2 Panther Gs, the onus is on the 3AD player to use smoke and hedgerow hell to close that distance.


your comparison of the Jumbo and the Panther D is flawed, it does not take into account the Panther's superior range (1,200 vs 1,000).

To clarify, I mean that its irrelevant, because the jumbo usually takes morale damage before it can get a shot off. If it goes head to head with a panther it usually ends up "falling back" pretty quickly (which is better than being dead of course)
 
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Would be nice If we had cheaper more numerous shermans or a way to really get proper flanking shots so we could use tactics that would work and make it possible. I understand we should not be taking panthers etc on frontally, but I need a way to kill them that works that does not rely on having a bad opponent.
 

Max_Damage

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Jumbo needs nerfing, 210-220 cost and cut availability in phase C to 1 tank total. (and 1 jumbo in phase B).

Sherman 75 and 76 should be staple both realism wise and balance wise.
Also i hope jumbo doesnt have the same armor as the tiger 2 because the latter has a lot more. The latter will literally stop its own gun or the soviet 100 mm and 122 mm.
 
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Boxman

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Jumbo needs nerfing, 210-220 cost and cut availability in phase C to 1 tank total. (and 1 jumbo in phase B).

Sherman 75 and 76 should be staple both realism wise and balance wise.

"we should remove the only thing that makes 3AD viable in any fashion due to gameplay and keep the other Shermans a joke because of realism"

Keep that up and Eugen might end up hiring you.

I personally believe that the Free French should get a squad of XCOM-style soldiers with plasma snipers, laser machineguns, and jetpacks. Also they have ablative super-armor with the equivalent of 40AV.
 

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Jumbo needs nerfing, 210-220 cost and cut availability in phase C to 1 tank total. (and 1 jumbo in phase B).

Sherman 75 and 76 should be staple both realism wise and balance wise.

The only way they should do that is if they heavily nerf Panther availability. Right now the Jumbo is the only American tank that can absorb fire from a Panther.
 

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your comparison of the Jumbo and the Panther D is flawed, it does not take into account the Panther's superior range (1,200 vs 1,000).

To clarify, I mean that its irrelevant, because the jumbo usually takes morale damage before it can get a shot off. If it goes head to head with a panther it usually ends up "falling back" pretty quickly (which is better than being dead of course)

The only 1200m tank is the 76w and then the 76mm AT gun. Shermans are gimped from the get go. They don't get to fire unless you pull some Houdini act.
 

TulipSA

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If you can't factor in accuracy I don't think "TV" can really tell us anything for tanks with different accs. Hitting the target is kind of important.

If you can produce the table for accuracy, I can get to shots-to-kill, but as it stands I don't know the relationship between accuracy value and accuracy percentage, or even more importantly between range and accuracy.

I mostly include the discussion of TV as a methodological contrivance. The real content is "don't engage Panthers from max range, try to engage from <600m." I just wanted to show the science and math behind what I was doing.

your comparison of the Jumbo and the Panther D is flawed, it does not take into account the Panther's superior range (1,200 vs 1,000).

To clarify, I mean that its irrelevant, because the jumbo usually takes morale damage before it can get a shot off. If it goes head to head with a panther it usually ends up "falling back" pretty quickly (which is better than being dead of course)

I actually did account for the range difference in calculating the AP, but as mentioned in my caveats, my model does not include morale damage, partially because I don't know how much suppression is caused by various sources, but probably more importantly because artillery complicates the model enormously.

Again, the real content of the post is "If your tank is in any way inferior, even by 1 TV, engage from as close as possible. If your tank is superior, engage from maximum effective distance."
 

Max_Damage

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The only way they should do that is if they heavily nerf Panther availability. Right now the Jumbo is the only American tank that can absorb fire from a Panther.
Jumbo is just an idiotic tank it ignores all fire save for the BEF panther that has gotten to around 600m. It ignores all AT guns altogether. Such an immune tank cant make the bulk of a deck like it does right now with x4 jumbos come phase C. Its just not balanced and by the way during the timeframe jumbos were really rare and had very low availability. Panthers are kind easy to kill with 76 mm or 17 pdr in comparison, even at max range.

Panther vs jumbo? Well id say Panther D is useless.
What you really want in a 12 ss deck are those 2 star 7 accuracy 14 armor BEF panthers(and they come phase C only 280 pts each). they shoot very well, with good % to hit and reload. They MIGHT kill a jumbo, but only at 600 m or closer. I have done that but it also takes quite some shots even at 500 m.

All in all, jumbos give you near immunity And its too good for x5 tanks with a price of 180 each.
 

Boxman

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Jumbo is just an idiotic tank it ignores all fire save for the BEF panther that has gotten to around 600m. It ignores all AT guns altogether. Such an immune tank cant make the bulk of a deck like it does right now with x4 jumbos come phase C. Its just not balanced and by the way during the timeframe jumbos were really rare and had very low availability. Panthers are kind easy to kill with 76 mm or 17 pdr in comparison, even at max range.

Panther vs jumbo? Well id say Panther D is useless.
What you really want in a 12 ss deck are those 2 star 7 accuracy 14 armor BEF panthers(and they come phase C only 280 pts each). they shoot very well, with good % to hit and reload. They MIGHT kill a jumbo, but only at 600 m or closer. I have done that but it also takes quite some shots even at 500 m.

All in all, jumbos give you near immunity And its too good for x5 tanks with a price of 180 each.

Guess what? The Allies can't touch Panthers with 90% of their guns, either, and Panthers pack a much bigger punch, have higher accuracy, higher availability, and higher engagement ranges. Also, Panther AP=Jumbo AV at 900m, which is just barely inside Jumbo engagement range.

Since we're talking about historical availability, why does 12th SS get ~50% of it's order of battle Panthers while the 3AD gets 1/6th of its tanks? Why does the 352nd get 66% of all Jagdpanthers seen in theater up until the Battle of the Bulge? That is the equivalent of the British getting 244 Sherman Fireflies.
 

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If you bring 5 Jumbo's who is gonna do the shooting? You wont have any 76's unless you took the single 1 star B card. Oh you have nothing to shoot with? Use the M5A1! Get within 200m and no problem right?.

Also isn't acc a 2d6 die roll or some such.