• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tank Girl

Major
3 Badges
Apr 8, 2017
569
0
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
Haha, well, that sounds nice. Maybe jagdpanthers can cheese up the panther line a bit :)
I just hope u can get them in the same division.

Tiger I 16 AP and AV 13? why has it worse armor than Panther?! While I know it should have less AP.

Hoping for Panzer Lehr anyway!
 

Tank Girl

Major
3 Badges
Apr 8, 2017
569
0
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
The only hope for the 3rd Armored is to push hard in Cat A and B while praying that the tide of Panthers doesn't push you back to spawn. The whining of German players that the Jumbo and 17 Pdr is OP while getting hordes of Panthers and in the VIP beta Jagdpanthers is annoying to say the least

I dont whine, I just find it annoying, strange and not immersive.
What I expected where MORE shermans in my face, better Panther offensive capabilities and less obvious troll units like Jumbo... Why not give it 18 AV or 19? would still be enough for its price...

The panther push at least seems to be manageable at least, while the jumbo is just immune...
 

Boxman

First Lieutenant
24 Badges
Mar 16, 2017
244
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
352. Infanterie could get six Jagdpanthers in the VIP beta.

They could take a total of 8 in the deck, if you took no other AT weapons. That accounts for 66% of all Jagdpanthers seen in theater from Normandy to the Bulge. They could not be penetrated reliably by any unit the Allies had and had a 91% chance to penetrate anything the allies had save for the Jumbo.
 
Last edited:

I WUB PUGS

Better run through the... bocage
56 Badges
Jul 4, 2012
958
19
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
The panther push at least seems to be manageable at least, while the jumbo is just immune...

Nah, I've lost Jumbos. It's a sad time too because you know it's your shield against the wall of Panthers. I've thought hard about cutting one of the double cards of Jumbos from my deck, but whats the point. I may seriously just dump all Shermans except Jumbos and just buy more artillery.

The shittiest part is that your 76mm AT guns are really your only hope at killing a Panther consistently............then when they get spotted, in comes the artillery or the rocket plane. And you only get like 8 of the 76mm's. Feel's bad.

Panther push is more formidable if only because the Panther has teeth along with the thick skin.

I do agree the Jumbo could maybe lose a tad bit of armor, but I'm not willing to concede that until 12th SS gets some major reorganization in its availability or 3rd AD gets major price and availability buffs to the other Shermans. If they just neuter Jumbo a bit, I'm not playing 3rd armored anymore. Utterly pointless deck without its Panther Shield.


They could take a total of 8 in the deck, if you took no other AT weapons. That accounts for 66% of all Jagdpanthers seen in theater from Normandy to the Bulge. They could not be penetrated reliably by any unit the Allies had and had a 91% chance to penetrate anything the allies had save for the Jumbo.

Why in the f...... has Eugen given the Germans such absurd availability and thoroughly cropped the Allies? Why are the Germans getting quality and quantity? Come on, just one dev tell us in one one of these threads why it is the case or that you're looking into it.

In the 3rd Armored Balance thread on page 4, I did the math for 12th SS and 3AD. 12th SS has basically 50% of its total PzIV and Panther order of battle from D-Day. HALF! While 3rd Armored gets roughly a sixth of its medium tanks. A SIXTH!

Why such disparity?
 

Sharkey Ward

Second Lieutenant
7 Badges
Nov 5, 2014
179
0
  • Darkest Hour
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II
And you only get like 8 of the 76mm's. Feel's bad.

By any reasonable metric you get 2 76mm AT guns and only in phase C, since with that horrible base accuracy anything but the 2 star one with an extra command unit to make it 3 stars will just get suppressed by HE shells from the panther before hitting its first shot.
 

Boxman

First Lieutenant
24 Badges
Mar 16, 2017
244
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
I dont whine, I just find it annoying, strange and not immersive.
What I expected where MORE shermans in my face, better Panther offensive capabilities and less obvious troll units like Jumbo... Why not give it 18 AV or 19? would still be enough for its price...

The panther push at least seems to be manageable at least, while the jumbo is just immune...

Obvious troll units? The Jumbo is literally the only thing that can keep itself from being OHKO by the Panther. Not only that, but since 100m=1AP the Panther's AP will equal Jumbo AV at 900m while the Jumbo's effective AP will still be 2 under Panther AV. If you micro your units correctly and your opponent attempts to engage you with a 76mm Sherman you can just OHKO it at max distance with no recourse from the Allied side. A good 12th SS player will not lose to 3AD. Also, there are almost twice as many Panthers in the German deck as 76mm Shermans in 3AD.
 

Boxman

First Lieutenant
24 Badges
Mar 16, 2017
244
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
Nah, I've lost Jumbos. It's a sad time too because you know it's your shield against the wall of Panthers. I've thought hard about cutting one of the double cards of Jumbos from my deck, but whats the point. I may seriously just dump all Shermans except Jumbos and just buy more artillery.

The shittiest part is that your 76mm AT guns are really your only hope at killing a Panther consistently............then when they get spotted, in comes the artillery or the rocket plane. And you only get like 8 of the 76mm's. Feel's bad.

Panther push is more formidable if only because the Panther has teeth along with the thick skin.

I do agree the Jumbo could maybe lose a tad bit of armor, but I'm not willing to concede that until 12th SS gets some major reorganization in its availability or 3rd AD gets major price and availability buffs to the other Shermans. If they just neuter Jumbo a bit, I'm not playing 3rd armored anymore. Utterly pointless deck without its Panther Shield.




Why in the f...... has Eugen given the Germans such absurd availability and thoroughly cropped the Allies? Why are the Germans getting quality and quantity? Come on, just one dev tell us in one one of these threads why it is the case or that you're looking into it.

In the 3rd Armored Balance thread on page 4, I did the math for 12th SS and 3AD. 12th SS has basically 50% of its total PzIV and Panther order of battle from D-Day. HALF! While 3rd Armored gets roughly a sixth of its medium tanks. A SIXTH!

Why such disparity?

I'm to the point where if they neuter anything about 3AD or buff anything about the Germans I'm done with the game. I am disgusted with how this has panned out.
 

I WUB PUGS

Better run through the... bocage
56 Badges
Jul 4, 2012
958
19
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
By any reasonable metric you get 2 76mm AT guns and only in phase C, since with that horrible base accuracy anything but the 2 star one with an extra command unit to make it 3 stars will just get suppressed by HE shells from the panther before hitting its first shot.

Nah, you can get what one in Phase B? A two star?

I'm not saying I've had good luck with them, pretty poor actually. In my last game last night I had to fight my ass off just to get a draw on my particular part of the map in a 10v10 vs a decent 12th SS player. I think at the end I was like 100m into enemy territory going off the start lines. That's after I got pushed back like 600m. Friggin WW1 in tanks.
 

Boxman

First Lieutenant
24 Badges
Mar 16, 2017
244
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
Nah, I've lost Jumbos. It's a sad time too because you know it's your shield against the wall of Panthers. I've thought hard about cutting one of the double cards of Jumbos from my deck, but whats the point. I may seriously just dump all Shermans except Jumbos and just buy more artillery.

The shittiest part is that your 76mm AT guns are really your only hope at killing a Panther consistently............then when they get spotted, in comes the artillery or the rocket plane. And you only get like 8 of the 76mm's. Feel's bad.

Panther push is more formidable if only because the Panther has teeth along with the thick skin.

I do agree the Jumbo could maybe lose a tad bit of armor, but I'm not willing to concede that until 12th SS gets some major reorganization in its availability or 3rd AD gets major price and availability buffs to the other Shermans. If they just neuter Jumbo a bit, I'm not playing 3rd armored anymore. Utterly pointless deck without its Panther Shield.




Why in the f...... has Eugen given the Germans such absurd availability and thoroughly cropped the Allies? Why are the Germans getting quality and quantity? Come on, just one dev tell us in one one of these threads why it is the case or that you're looking into it.

In the 3rd Armored Balance thread on page 4, I did the math for 12th SS and 3AD. 12th SS has basically 50% of its total PzIV and Panther order of battle from D-Day. HALF! While 3rd Armored gets roughly a sixth of its medium tanks. A SIXTH!

Why such disparity?

Depending on which argument suits them better the answer is either "gameplay balance" or "historical accuracy."
 

wargamer12

Sergeant
10 Badges
Mar 16, 2017
62
0
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
Jagdpanther Stats anyone?

And I believe they only come with infantry divisions? :(

From what I can remember it was 22av and 23ap i think

nothing in the american arsenal can reliably penetrate a panther from the front from my experience tho

76mm at guns are just too vulnerable too artillery and ju88s aircraft... germans also get the 88 sam site and fielding just 2-3 nullifies the allied airforce... Also its usual that the 76mm shermans get concentrated fire in which case after dying americans only have the jumbo that blocks the shot but thats it
 

Boxman

First Lieutenant
24 Badges
Mar 16, 2017
244
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
Nah, you can get what one in Phase B? A two star?

I'm not saying I've had good luck with them, pretty poor actually. In my last game last night I had to fight my ass off just to get a draw on my particular part of the map in a 10v10 vs a decent 12th SS player. I think at the end I was like 100m into enemy territory going off the start lines. That's after I got pushed back like 600m. Friggin WW1 in tanks.

You don't get 2-star 76mm AT guns until phase C.

From what I can remember it was 22av and 23ap i think

nothing in the american arsenal can reliably penetrate a panther from the front from my experience tho

76mm at guns are just too vulnerable too artillery and ju88s aircraft... germans also get the 88 sam site and fielding just 2-3 nullifies the allied airforce... Also its usual that the 76mm shermans get concentrated fire in which case after dying americans only have the jumbo that blocks the shot but thats it

Again, at 900m the Panther AP=Jumbo AV. the Jumbo is only a sponge at max distance.
 

I WUB PUGS

Better run through the... bocage
56 Badges
Jul 4, 2012
958
19
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
I'm to the point where if they neuter anything about 3AD or buff anything about the Germans I'm done with the game. I am disgusted with how this has panned out.

I wouldn't go that far, but I'm pretty bummed at how pointless 3rd Armored is. I take obscene casualties, like truly obscene and I'm doing all the stuff everyone says you're supposed to do. I'm not one of those players that just picks one country or deck either.

After seeing what the Jadgpanther could do in the VIP beta and what is happening in this beta and what at least on paper Panzer Lehr will be capable of, I'm already seeing a really shitty and predictable meta:

Allies play their ass off in Phase A and if they're lucky into Phase B.

If they run into even semi-competent German decks and players, they get neutralized.

Phase C, just hope you've taken enough ground in Phases A and B that you end up winning on conquest points.






The game is completely unplayable outside of standard medium income, 500 starting points, conquest too. You couldn't pay me to play this crap and especially as allies in a total destruction game.
 

Halflingforever

Sherman is my Waifu
8 Badges
May 20, 2013
15
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
and this is why I prefer playing brits with their 17pdrs and challengers XD seriously what the hell can a 3AD do agaisnt 12thSS that knows what he is doing....
Nothing that's the issue. The 3rd can only be effective in Cat A and B. After that your going to get flattened. It's EE all over again

needs a update.gif
 
Last edited:

Boxman

First Lieutenant
24 Badges
Mar 16, 2017
244
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
I wouldn't go that far, but I'm pretty bummed at how pointless 3rd Armored is. I take obscene casualties, like truly obscene and I'm doing all the stuff everyone says you're supposed to do. I'm not one of those players that just picks one country or deck either.

After seeing what the Jadgpanther could do in the VIP beta and what is happening in this beta and what at least on paper Panzer Lehr will be capable of, I'm already seeing a really shitty and predictable meta:

Allies play their ass off in Phase A and if they're lucky into Phase B.

If they run into even semi-competent German decks and players, they get neutralized.

Phase C, just hope you've taken enough ground in Phases A and B that you end up winning on conquest points.






The game is completely unplayable outside of standard medium income, 500 starting points, conquest too. You couldn't pay me to play this crap and especially as allies in a total destruction game.

Yeah, it really is disgusting. I should have saved the screenshot: last game I inflicted 7400 points of casualties while taking 3200 points in casualties while still suffering a "major defeat" as the 15th Scots. It is literally the Red Dragon superheavy meta if Blufor got the M1A2 and the BU while the best Redfor tank was the base T-80.
 

TulipSA

Private
31 Badges
Apr 17, 2015
18
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
I actually did the math on this last night on tank fights, it was pretty fun! All numbers pertaining to hits to kill are averages, and should not be taken to be deterministic.

So let's step back and get the big picture. First thing to keep in mind is that every 100m you close, you add +1 AP to the shot. The other thing to know is that since the penetration table proceeds as a quartic function in terms of AP-AV, it's a fairly simple function so using 10AP against 5AV is the same as 15AP vs 10AV.

So, going abstract for a bit, divide the main cannon's range by 10, add that to the FAV and the given AP value, and you have a total "Tank Value (TV)." You can do the math yourself, but two tanks of equal TV, regardless of what their other stats look like, will be evenly matched. In this case, the Jumbo and Panther D wind up having equal TVs. At 1000m, both have 0% chance to penetrate. However, if you close to 500m (which is closer to historical tank engagement ranges, BTW), both have AP-AV=4, which corresponds to a 42% penetration chance, or 2.38 hits to kill. They have the same accuracy and ROF, so they're very evenly matched.

That's just comparing even tanks. If you're comparing uneven tanks at the maximum effective range, the weaker tank will take 50 hits to kill (2% penetration), while the stronger tank will take at most 12.5 (8% penetration). If you close the distance, however, the hits to kill converges. As an example: the M4A3(76)W and Jumbo cost the same, but have a difference in TV of 6. At the maximum effective range for the 76 to damage the Jumbo (600m), the 76 will, again, take 50 hits to kill the Jumbo, while the Jumbo will be at 2.38, or 21 times faster, aka the 76 will need 21x numerical superiority (ignoring the effects of morale damage, which will be substantial in such a scenario). If, however, the 76 closes to 300m, the number of hits to kill drops to 3.7, while the Jumbo's drops to 1.2, reducing the ratio to 3:1. There are two practical lessons from this demonstration: even small increases in TV can lead to massively different outcomes, and if you are using a weaker tank close the distance before engaging.

Now, on to cost. If you divide the number of points by TV, you get inverse efficiency (which is slightly more intuitive than efficiency). The average of all open beta tanks at this time is to spend 4.43 points per TV point. The Jumbo and M5A1 are significant outliers, clocking in at 3.64 and 3.75 respectively (the Jumbo is the most effective 'proper' tank - the SDKFZ 250/9 has both an AP and AV value so I put it in, and it spends 2.5 points per TV). The Panthers are also significant outliers: The Panther D at 5.71, the Panther G at 6.51, and the Bef. Panther at 6.36. In other words, the Jumbo is more efficient than the Panther family. Put more practically, you can take 3 Jumbos for 540 points, and 2 Panther Ds for 480. All else being equal, the Jumbos will defeat the Panther Ds dramatically.

However, let's consider Panther Gs vs Jumbos (TV1-TV0=1). If engagement ranges are left at max (800m) and the budget set to 560 points, 3 Jumbos will take 100 average hits (33 hit-volley-equivalents) to take out 2 Panther Gs, while the Panther Gs need 37.5 (18.75). So, advantage Panther Gs. If the Jumbos push to 300m, then they need 3.44 average hits (or 1 hit-volley-equivalent), while the Panther Gs need 4.17 (2). This ignores that Panther Gs have 7 accuracy, while the Jumbos have 5 (I don't know the accuracy tables).

MASSIVE CAVEATS

All else is never equal.
For one thing, divisions have different cost incomes (which actually further distorts the Jumbo's advantage). For another, the number of tanks possible to deploy varies wildly - the 3AD can field 6 Jumbos, while the HJ can field 4 Panther Ds, 2 Bef. Panthers, and 18 Panther Gs. For yet another, none of the Jumbos are veteran.

This analysis ignores side shots, morale damage, accuracy, veteran status, leadership, etc. All of which is important.

An important thing to stress from this, however, is that higher TVs are a lot more forgiving. While the 3 Jumbos can close to 300m and defeat the 2 Panther Gs, the onus is on the 3AD player to use smoke and hedgerow hell to close that distance.
 

Tank Girl

Major
3 Badges
Apr 8, 2017
569
0
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
I had no game yet where the numbers of tanks in my deck actually mattered. I just noticed that in an average 40 mins game jumbos bring every advance to a stop.

I also would like to see more shermans on the allied side. At the moment it always feels like 1,5 shermans for each Panther, while it should be way more I think.
 

Radioshow

Second Lieutenant
15 Badges
Apr 21, 2012
149
0
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Semper Fi
  • Ancient Space
  • Lead and Gold
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • BATTLETECH
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Prison Architect
The real problem is getting that close without getting in range of all their other stuff, and smoke works both ways. Their tanks can always get off the first shots(in the open) and have better acc with some 2 star heavy tanks. The 1 star 76w with an m5/m4a1 2 star is not bad but still generally has to get close putting the light m5/m4 at risk. You have to have a command tank with the group, i have even tried smoking it alone(in the group) to keep it hidden while the buff influence is still working. Some times you can use the hedges/terrain but that also requires lots of inf to clear out any spots that might have AT inf. It just requires alot of work that doesn't really help too much. If you could really get side shots properly without have a buttload of tanks to flank both sides with and maybe jumbo up the mid. You cant smoke everywhere or you cant shoot. Dont have/cant afford enough numbers to do the rush.
It takes more than it should due to the game mechanics not working co-operating with the established strategies.