Shanxi borders?

[unmerged(139259)]

Does someone know, what areas did the Shanxi clique really controlled before the Second Sino-Japanese War?

Wherever I looked, I founded that only the Shanxi province itself was under control of Shanxi warlord. Maybe also the province of Shandong (where Qingdao port is located). But in HOI3, Shanxi controls more areas to the north and to the west of Shanxi province, while not controlling Shandong.

Is here someone who can actually provide some reference to the approximate Shanxi borders before the war? I really would like to know how Shanxi looked during those times in real...

 

[semaphore]

I think Shandong fell under KMT control after the 1930 civil war.

 

[CaptRobau]

I've done some research into this and came to the following map:

As you can see the map is pretty different from what we get in HOI3.

Guangxi Clique: Split up in two Cliques, Guangxi and Guangdong. The war Guangxi launches in HOI2 (I'm not sure if it's in HOI3 as well) is actually a (very bad) simulation of the power struggle over control of Guangdong province. Guangxi left it's alliance with Guangdong and the latter become fully KMT.

Yunnan Clique: Split up in two Cliques, Yunnan and Sichuan. The latter is actually one of the stronger Cliques as it had a small armored car force.

Shanxi Clique: Should only control Shanxi province as it lost the Central Plains War against the KMT.

Nationalist China: Controls the Beijing area now. It also gets Inner Mongolia because I couldn't find any evidence it was controlled by any of the cliques, with the exception of Ningxia province which used to be bigger. This was unknown to me when I made this map. So Ma Clique also includes that sort of M shaped area.

Communist China: The area on the map is what I definately know was theirs. Probably a bit bigger, especially to the south. They probably controlled about half of Shaanxi province.

East Hopei (blue, near Beijing): Was a former demilitarized zone whose governor made it autonomous. By 1936 it was a Japanese buffer state. Also the reason why the Marco Polo Bridge Incident happened because otherwise the Japanese couldn't have reached Beijing to begin with.

 

[Kernest]

Personally I'm rather happy with the map since Nat. China not having border with Manchukuo prevents them from massing all their troops to the border, where they could easily be destroyed by achieving breakthrough in the southern part of the front.
Although it would be nice to have more Chinese warlords on the map, splitting the already weak factions would have some serious consequences regarding battle capability.
And they can't be all strengthened either because then the minor factions put together would be stronger than Nat. China itself.

 

[CaptRobau]

Personally I'm rather happy with the map since Nat. China not having border with Manchukuo prevents them from massing all their troops to the border, where they could easily be destroyed by achieving breakthrough in the southern part of the front.
Although it would be nice to have more Chinese warlords on the map, splitting the already weak factions would have some serious consequences regarding battle capability.
And they can't be all strengthened either because then the minor factions put together would be stronger than Nat. China itself.

They were weak to begin with. They're only there to deliver manpower in the form of militia units.

Also, would the troops mass on that border? Because Japan will have the high threat. Would the puppet Manchukuo have the same threat?

 

[Kernest]

Well Nat. China should understand to move more troops to Manchukuo border once Japan starts moving more and more troops to the border, but Nat. China would probably leave considerable amounts of troops to other borders, until they all join together against Japan.

 

[CaptRobau]

Of course, it would see the many Japanese units on the border. It'd just be a matter of telling the AI to prioritize the Shanghai area over the northern China area in terms of quality of troops.

 

[unmerged(139259)]

I've done some research into this and came to the following map:
(...)

Yay, it's pretty much close to my own research, but there are still some questions about the China in those times.

East Hebei might be a bit bigger - probably it had borders with Shanxi?

I'm not sure if Guangdong and Sichuan were still capable to be marked as independent or autonomous provinces post 1936/1937.

I was also unable to find any reference that the western part of Inner Mongolia was controlled by any warlords during those times, so probably it was under some loose control of KMT. But who knows? HOI3 splits it between Xibei San Ma (or Ma Clique) and Shanxi, for example.

And the last but not least, Shanxi province might have been larger then it is now. If you look at this map, you will see that Shanxi province borders reach up to Mongolia, while the Inner Mongolia seems to be partly under control of China and partly under Mongolia. (it is a French map of 1936, so Shanxi is marked there as Shan-Si)

I know it's a bit weird, but it somehow might answer our questions about Shanxi borders and about who controlled Inner Mongolia during those times...

 

[CaptRobau]

It seems it was drawn using the province borders of the Qing Dynasty (which is up to 1911). The current Chinese province of Inner Mongolia was divided in Republican times into three provinces: Ningsia, Chara, Suiyuan. Ningsia was definately controlled by Ma.

Anyway this ROC claims map seems to be the best representation of 1930s China in terms of provinces:

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/roc_administrative_and_claims.jpg

Sichuan was ruled by warlords till at least 1938 according to Wikipedia:

During the period from 1927-1938, Sichuan was in the hands of five warlords: Liu Xiang, Yang Sen, Liu Wenhui, Deng Xihou, and Tian Songyao.[...]General Liu Wenhui and Liu Xiang improved their forces, organizing a small airforce and an armored car force.

In in-game terms Sichuan would have a strong military but because it's internally divided it can be easily taken over by Nat China. The same goes for Guangdong, which was weakened by the death of Hu Hanmin. Chiang wanted make Guangdong more loyal to him. Chen Jitang conspired in turn with Guangxi to overthrow Chiang. Through bribery the conspiracy was undermined and in game terms, Nat China annexed Guangxi. This was in late 1936.

How to simulate this? It's quite simple. All the cliques are ruled by a Paternal Autocrat party known as Guangxi Clique, Shanxi Clique, etc. But the KMT is also a party in these cliques. By doing Support Our Party in the intelligence screen as Nat China, the KMT influence can be increased. When the Clique party becomes smaller than the KMT (or zero altogether) then Nat China annexes the Clique.

This solves a lot of the problems, I think. It's historical and it gives Nat China the boost it needs to survive beyond 1937 (more IC, manpower, leadership, infantry and an armored car brigade).

Regarding East Hopei, you might be right. I know it encompasses Tiangjin and part of Beijing. I also know it ends northeast of the Baihe River. It also includes the towns of Taku and Tangku. So I used your link which has a very accurate Manchukuo border to draw what I think where the borders of East Hopei in 1936. On a side note, East Hopei was absorbed into the Provisional Government of China.

Here's the Hopei map and below it an updated overview map:

 

[unmerged(139259)]

Well, it is developing quite nicely.

Now, to the Communist Heartland. I'm quite sure that they were not in control over the whole province. Here is a map I found about the long march and aftermath:

It is also interesting to see that Shandong and Beijing was not under Nationalist control before the outbreak of the war with the Japanese. I also found some info about Beijing Army which should have played an important role as some kind of autonomous military organisation or whatever, but I really do not know what it was...

And how about the western part of Inner Mongolia. So do you think it was under control of Xibei San Ma (as seen on the updated map)?

 

[CaptRobau]

Everything in the North (Beijing, Shandong) in terms of playable factions were absorbed by the KMT after the Northern Expedition and the Central Plains War as far as I can tell. Except for Shanxi which was significantly reduced.

The Beiyang Army was defeated after the Northern Expedition and the army absorbed into the KMT after the Central Plains War. The cooperation between this army and the KMT was lacking however. This did contribute to the rapid advance of Japan into Northern China and later helped the communists win the Civil War.

I think your map rather shows where the Nationalists and Communists had full control. Maybe do something with cores. The areas on that map the Nationalists control receive cores, while the rest doesn't. This would simulate the lack of cooperation in terms of delivering recruits, resources, etc. to the KMT. The whole of China would become cores if most of the warlords and Japan have been beaten. Communist China on the other hand would have cores from the start, to symbolize the wide support the communists had under the Chinese people. It would also give them an advantage for the upcoming civil war. Any situation in which Chiang doesn't kick the Japanese out fully on his own (so not because the Allies force Japan to surrender) would result in the KMT still having no cores in Northern China, which would mean the Communists have a better chance of setting up their base area there, like they did in real life.

Regarding the territory I gave the Communists, it's only half of the province. Every map I've seen so far had the southern border above Xi'an, which is indicated by the red dot. Some maps show the border spilling over into Xibei San Ma. In-game I'd just look what the best defendable border is, Xibei San Ma or the border of the province. Nothing can really be said with certainty about this as the communists were everywhere, just more in that general area.

 

[unmerged(139259)]

That is a good idea. I will see what I can do with it...

Thanks.

 

[semaphore]

Everything in the North (Beijing, Shandong) in terms of playable factions were absorbed by the KMT after the Northern Expedition and the Central Plains War as far as I can tell. Except for Shanxi which was significantly reduced.

They were absorbed but it just means the warlords became independent faction flying the Nationalist flag. Some generals who sided with Chiang were rewarded with territories where they consolidated their power. Others were restored to their armies after the Japanese invasion of Manchuria, as an act of internal reconsciliation. Thus despite nominal unity under the KMT, much of these areas did not truly fall under the control of the central government (the Nanking National Government).

For instance Shandong was technically under KMT rule, but in practice the governor of that province, Han Fuju (defected warlord), acted independently and often defied orders from Nanking. Despite being a member of the KMT himself he actively suppressed party bureaucracy within Shandong, withheld tax revenues, and in general built up his own (military) power at the expense of the central government. It's partly why Chiang had him arrested and executed during the Sino-Japanese War, after he was forced from his powerbase.

Similarly, Beijing was essentially ruled by Song Zheyuan (another defected warlord) through the Hebei–Chahar Political Council. Although this was also nominally an institute of the central government, in practice Chahar and Hebei (or what was left thereof) were autonomous after real KMT forces vacated the area in the wake of the He-Umezu Agreement.

 

[CaptRobau]

I´ve looked into it and definately regarding Shandong province you are quite correct. Another Wiki page actually lists him with all the other cliques and factions. Wikipedia wasn't too clear about Song's level of independence, although he's listed as a warlord somewhere. But maybe adding him would make Nationalist China too boring too play. Don't want to take everything out of a players hands. Now you can at least experiment with different strategies on how to slow down the Japanese in the north.

It also has to do with my next topic: Mengkukuo

First off, it should really be Mengjiang. The Chinese didn't call it Mengkukuo and the Japanese called it Mongkyo. Second it wasn't created during the war but rather in late 1935. Like East Hopei (Hebei, depends on the spelling you use), it wasn't a deliberate attempt to create a puppet state but rather a nice opportunity. Prince Demchugdongrub wanted autonomy for the Inner Mongolians, knocked on the Japanese door for aid. Japan saw it as a nice opportunity to weaken China. They actually equipped them pretty well. By the start of the Sino-Japanese War, they had a small airforce (maybe enough for a 1918 INT wing and various armored vehicles (cars, tankettes, light tanks, etc.) enough for an early armored car brigade. In late 1935 used Japanese aid to secure the northern half of Chara Province. In 1936 Prince Demchugdongrub invaded Suiyuan Province but he was defeated by the Nationalists. After the outbreak of the Sino-Japanese War he did manage to capture this province as the Chinese armies relocated much of the troops there to more urgent fronts. The whole of Inner Mongolia he never conquered as the Ma's resisted in Ningsia.

How to simulate this? I say we just have Northern Chahar as Mengjiang at the start of 1936 and have it be a puppet of Japan. Technically you could have them fight a war at Nationalist China, but that would just mess up a lot of things. Nat China needs the time to prepare for war and keep the warlords quiet. It might not be completely historic but it should lead to more historic results.

 

[CaptRobau]

I drew up a new map based on the views expressed above:



I added Shandong, Mengjiang and the foreign concessions (British Hong Kong, Portuguese Macau and French Kwang-Chou-Wan).

 

[unmerged(139259)]

Hmm, Mengjiang is a bit complicated to be properly simulated in the game. As far as I know, it was called something like Mongol Autonomous Council (of Government) before 1937. But was not so far as a Japanese puppet. So while warlords are taken as "independent" countries by HOI3, it is actually a very good idea to have also Mengjiang as an entity already from the start. But it should become a Japanese puppet not before December 1937 when an independent Mengkukuo was declared by Demchugdongrub and simultaneously signed some vital agreements with Japan effectively becoming a Japanese puppet since then.

Another problem is how to depict it in the era when this country was incorporated into Wang Jingwei puppet regime (like East Hebei). Since it still enjoyed a large portion of autonomy, I think there is not much of a reason to remove it from the scene...

 

[TheBromgrev]

Which warlord is represented by the orange near Qingdao?

EDIT: Nevermind, I see now.

 

[williamprowant]

Whats the orange warlord? And it seems as though Comm. China is split into two, or is that two warlords?

 

[unmerged(139259)]

Colors are depicting the following warlords, cliques and states:

Nationalist China
Communist China
Japan
Song Zheyuan
Shanxi
Mengjiang
Manchukuo
East Hebei
Guanxi
Guangdong
Sinkiang
Tibet
Xibei San Ma
Yunnan
Sichuan


Plus UK, POR and FRA concessions.

 

[TheBromgrev]

Could you change the color of the French concession? I can't actually see it on the map (is it the port immediately north of Haikou?).

BTW, I'm currently implementing these suggestions for the HPP mod, and will post the relevant files here once I'm done if you want to play with the changes but not use the HPP. I won't add Song Zheyuan, but will remove nationalist cores instead. I also won't add Sichuan, but will give Yunnan that territory. Guangdong will remain part of Guangxi. This is because I don't want to add new nations, due to the effort involved in researching OOBs, Leaders for all parties, generals, etc.