Shahanshah Persia, how should I continue?

[cuendillar]

I just managed to form a, rather minimalistic, Persia butam at a complete loss as to how to continue. I've tried to keep options open but now I've gotten thoroughly boxed in without knowing where I should even try to expand. There's an achievement for going westwards through the Mamluks and Ottos, but that's completely unfeasible strengthwise. Gathering strength by heading towards India or Arabia first seems necessary, but where and how?

Diplomatically, I'm allied to Gazikumukh, Mushasha, Ak Qoyunlu and Sind. I also have Armenia as a vassal. This means I'm one over my relations cap, but with all my other neighbours hostile it might be worth it.

In the east, Transoxiana, Sistan and Fars have formed a triple alliance that combines to 49k soldiers. My allies wouldn't help me attack them right now, largely due to obnoxious leaders. Sind was allied to open a second front in case of war.

The Ottomans have 73k on their own and is allied to Tunisia and Bohemia as well. Also, they're at -117 relation penalty for wanting Armenia's land.


My strength, including vassal Armenia, is 31k. Enough to put (barely) me on the top ledger page, but with neighbours like that... QQ is relatively weak and friendless, but they border only wasteland and allies, so seems like a dead end. Doesn't exactly solve the long term problems, I would be left with pretty much the same issues anyway but with a bit more development.

Tech is dreadful, I only just bought renaissance and is at 6/6/9, ie up-to-date militarily but haven't even unlocked my second idea group. I went Defensive as the first one and have the first four in it. With 67% tech penalty from institutions, picking military seemed reasonable.

 

[Incompetent]

You may as well kill QQ while they are friendless and boxed in. Ditto with Georgia if they don't have friends. The more you build up your country, the more options you'll have diplomatically as potential allies start to take you seriously. As you say, your Persia is rather minimalist, so you need to take opportunities to grow where you can find them. Sooner or later, the balance of power between you and the alliance to the east will shift to a point where you can beat them.

Also, you're going to have to let Mushasha go at some point - they're sitting on your permanent claims and an important expansion route. (Maybe wait until they've helped you beat Transoxania etc, but don't wait too long - you don't want them to blob to the south themselves.) Once you reach the Gulf, you have a lot more options.

As for tech, if you can cut through Georgia and Circassia and make contact with Genoa, you should be able to get some institutional spread from there. Alternatively, there's always development dumping.

 

[Stenen Jan]

For now, do your best to keep Ottos and Mamluks off your case. I guess that's not possible with the Ottos wanting your vassal's land but definitely suck up to the Mamluks. Your focus should be on eastward expansion. You have cultural unity with every culture in the Persian group and most of that land should be Shia, so it's definitely the best avenue for expansion. If the Transoxiana alliance is currently stopping you then I would let Mushasha go and take their land. From there you could expand into Hormuz and get some more trade money flowing in.

With Persia Renaissance and Colonialism come slowly but the next couple are a lot more manageable and hopefully you'll open up a technology gap with Transoxiana and friends. If the alliance is still intact and they still have the numbers advantage, hopefully the tech gap will offset it.

 

[TenshiN]

Eat Georgia, un-ally and eat Gazikumukh and go towards Russia, also possibly invading Crimea. Also, Qara's remaining land is quite decent. And while you do all of that, it is possible that you'll get a chance at fighting the Transoxiana alliance block, with someone not joining because of a difficult war of its own/rebels, or someone deciding it wants its ally's land and declaring on it... Tons of options... Not mentioning that you'll be stronger as well.

 

[ElGranCapitan]

67% tech penalty

Develop colonialism and printing press, both take ages to arrive. Use the Persian trade center that Mazandaran owns at the start, it is grasslands and produces cloth (and will make you really rich if highly developed)

You can tech adm and dip later, but you probably can't take another +50% tech cost

 

[TenshiN]

Develop colonialism and printing press, both take ages to arrive. Use the Persian trade center that Mazandaran owns at the start, it is grasslands and produces cloth (and will make you really rich if highly developed)

You can tech adm and dip later, but you probably can't take another +50% tech cost

The province of Shirvan also makes a great development target. Silk, drylands, estuary.

 

[cuendillar]

Seems like there's a consensus on mopping up QQ first, followed by heading east at an opportune moment. Feeding the rest of Georgia to Coptic Armenia was in the cards, but I feared it would just poke the Russian bear if I went any farther north than that. Not that they've formed yet, but still. As was actually letting Armenia go in the hope of placating the Ottomans, but I was very reluctant to make such a large concession that, after all, might only result in them eating Armenia and wanting my own provinces instead as badly.

My main reason for hesitating (apart from still having a truce with QQ for another year or so and another with Georgia for four years) is the opportunity cost of striking at them.

Saving up the admin points for tech 7 instead would let me pick a diplo idea group (likely trade as that is already my largest income source) and immediately get the 2-3 first ones in it. This would also unlock my second NI (+10% goods produced) which would likely give me even more cash for workshop spamming earlier than I'd get from the increased income base the QQ land would provide once stated. I'm just not sure which option (buildup vs conquest) should be the first step or if it even matters. Extra army strength would sure be highly useful as matters stand.

I honestly barely even considered alliance breaking, figuring they would at least make the Ottomans more hesitant to declare and help me defend if worst comes to worst. But sure, Mushasha's land is nice and strategically valuable. Sooner or later, they'll have to go. I just intented it to be later when I hopefully didn't have so many enemies around me.

Develop colonialism and printing press, both take ages to arrive. Use the Persian trade center that Mazandaran owns at the start, it is grasslands and produces cloth (and will make you really rich if highly developed)

You can tech adm and dip later, but you probably can't take another +50% tech cost

The province of Shirvan also makes a great development target. Silk, drylands, estuary.

Seems sensible, is it enough to get the institution in just one province or should I speed up the spread by developing nearby provinces afterwards to reduce the cost of buying it like I did for Renaissance?
Also, I did start a little in the Mazandaran one, but as it's adjacent to Transoxiana, wouldn't they get almost as much out of it as me?

Thanks a lot to everyone being so helpful.

 

[TenshiN]

Seems like there's a consensus on mopping up QQ first, followed by heading east at an opportune moment. Feeding the rest of Georgia to Coptic Armenia was in the cards, but I feared it would just poke the Russian bear if I went any farther north than that. Not that they've formed yet, but still. As was actually letting Armenia go in the hope of placating the Ottomans, but I was very reluctant to make such a large concession that, after all, might only result in them eating Armenia and wanting my own provinces instead as badly.

My main reason for hesitating (apart from still having a truce with QQ for another year or so and another with Georgia for four years) is the opportunity cost of striking at them.

Saving up the admin points for tech 7 instead would let me pick a diplo idea group (likely trade as that is already my largest income source) and immediately get the 2-3 first ones in it. This would also unlock my second NI (+10% goods produced) which would likely give me even more cash for workshop spamming earlier than I'd get from the increased income base the QQ land would provide once stated. I'm just not sure which option (buildup vs conquest) should be the first step or if it even matters. Extra army strength would sure be highly useful as matters stand.

I honestly barely even considered alliance breaking, figuring they would at least make the Ottomans more hesitant to declare and help me defend if worst comes to worst. But sure, Mushasha's land is nice and strategically valuable. Sooner or later, they'll have to go. I just intented it to be later when I hopefully didn't have so many enemies around me.


Seems sensible, is it enough to get the institution in just one province or should I speed up the spread by developing nearby provinces afterwards to reduce the cost of buying it like I did for Renaissance?
Also, I did start a little in the Mazandaran one, but as it's adjacent to Transoxiana, wouldn't they get almost as much out of it as me?

Thanks a lot to everyone being so helpful.

It should be enough, do not waste more points for it. Institutions spread over time inside your empire, if you have a province with this institution present. It spreads faster to provinces with bigger development, so, to cut the future embracement costs, be sure that your institution-developed provinces are neighbouring eachother, so it will spread quickly between them. Also, as of the current version, if you fully control your capital state (And are Feudal Theocracy), you can use the "Invite Minorities from abroad" government action, coupled with "encourage development" state edict to really reduce development costs (-30% devcost total, can be more if state has Prosperity, even more with a happy Merchant estate).

 

[TheDungen]

Go into mesopotamia reasonably valuable provinces also sea access which means you could go colonial in the spice islands which is very valuable.

 

[cuendillar]

Wow, taking a 100% peace deal with QQ combined with developing Sari (the Mazandaran ICOT) propelled me to Great Power status. As I haven't been one before, could I leverage it somehow to improve my diplomatic situation? I'm lacking the prestige to ask for alliance breaking for now, but I guess the Transoxianan alliance would refuse anyway.

I'm currently in a bit of an interesting dilemma. They're at war with Sistan and the Timurid remnant at the moment and will most likely win on their own, ruining my idea to take the Timmies as a vassal with plentiful core to reconquest. However, leaving it be would let me focus on dealing with the approaching Plutocratic Coup, due in 7 years, and the construction of manufacturies. It would also allow me to pounce immediately when my truces runs out with the softer targets.

I could attack Sistan myself, likely with Fars as a cobelligerent, in the hope that I can capture the Farsi mountain forts before their armies can return home in sufficient numbers to break their sieges. I have plenty cannon and it's just a L1 capital and single L2 fort, neither coastal and both practically on my border. Peacing them out for alliance breaking would likely simplify my expansion eastward in its own right. The best case is if I manage to siege enough in time that I can also demand a path to the Persian Gulf coastline, allowing me to fabricate on Hormuz and giving me a path to expand into Arabia.
They have numerical superiority even without Fars, but I have tech 11 vs tech 9 in mil. Their main forces are currently in or near Sistan.

So, a pair of questions:
1. Under which situations is it good to use the GP actions, and which ones are worthwhile?

2. Is it worth the risk to stab the Transoxianan block in the back?