Shadown Kingdom - gameplay is the only reason behind it?

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ZivDero

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I've recently found THIS video showing the development of the HRE over the years and according to it, most of Italy that is part of it in 1444 stayed in until the peace of Wesphalia in 1647.

Shouldn't Italy leaving the HRE be tied to religious wars instead then?
 

Trin Tragula

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In reality there are all kinds of various degrees of authority over a piece of land and its peoples. In the game you're either in or you're out of the Empire. Formally the kingdom of Italy was part of the Holy Roman Empire even after 1648 but apparently your video decides that's when they no longer can be shown as that :)

Already by game start the Empire had a questionable authority in northern Italy and this only got looser as things progressed (and remember this is for an organization that's not really the biggest on central power to start with in this era).

The Italian states are removed from the empire because they had by that point become members in name only. They did not participate in the imperial diets, they would not belong to any Imperial circle when those were conceived, they did not really obey the emperor on the whole and they had already decisively defeated the emperor in war when he tried to impose his authority on them again already before the game starts. During the Italian wars it also became pretty clear that the Empire didn't really bother to try to protect the Italians (we do have an Emperor that did end up subjugating northern Italy in the timeline, but even then he chose to have the lands ruled from Spain rather than under Imperial princes).

You could argue that they should in fact start outside the empire as most of the above is just as true in 1444 but the way we have it now allows you a certain time to re-assert your authority over Italy if you're playing the emperor but unless you're willing to spend resources and quickly you will lose your authority over the region and others will see that and start eyeing it greedily.

EDIT: So to sum up. History is the bigger reason behind it really. :)
 
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Seven Sulivin

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In reality there are all kinds of various degrees of authority over a piece of land and its peoples. In the game you're either in or you're out of the Empire. Formally the kingdom of Italy was part of the Holy Roman Empire even after 1648 but apparently your video decides that's when they no longer can be shown as that :)

Already by game start the Empire had a questionable authority in northern Italy and this only got looser as things progressed (and remember this is for an organization that's not really the biggest on central power to start with in this era).

The Italian states are removed from the empire because they had by that point become members in name only. They did not participate in the imperial diets, they would not belong to any Imperial circle when those were conceived, they did not really obey the emperor on the whole and they had already decisively defeated the emperor in war when he tried to impose his authority on them again already before the game starts. During the Italian wars it also became pretty clear that the Empire didn't really bother to try to protect the Italians (we do have an Emperor that did end up subjugating northern Italy in the timeline, but even then he chose to have the lands ruled from Spain rather than under Imperial princes).

You could argue that they should in fact start outside the empire as most of the above is just as true in 1444 but the way we have it now allows you a certain time to re-assert your authority over Italy if you're playing the emperor but unless you're willing to spend resources and quickly you will lose your authority over the region and others will see that and start eyeing it greedily.

EDIT: So to sum up. History is the bigger reason behind it really. :)
Is there any way you could Putin event to put that empior in the game?
 
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ZivDero

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@Trin Tragula
Well, here's a piece of a gif from Wikipedia

Screenshot_1.png


Just like in the video, all of 1444 Italy except for Genoa and Ferrara are part of the HRE. The extent of "being part of HRE" can be disputed, but it's still part of it in some way.

Also, may be the HRE should jsut get some more love in the aspect of being part of it? That'd also help with the Provence and Burgundy issues (how is even part of Burgundy part of HRE but Burgundy isn't?)
 
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klingonadmiral

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@Trin Tragula
Well, here's a piece of a gif from Wikipedia

Just like in the video, all of 1444 Italy except for Genoa and Ferrara are part of the HRE. The extent of "being part of HRE" can be disputed, but it's still part of it in some way.

Also, may be the HRE should jsut get some more love in the aspect of being part of it? That'd also help with the Provence and Burgundy issues (how is even part of Burgundy part of HRE but Burgundy isn't?)

The Italian states insisted not being part of the HRE whenever the Emperor became too bothersome for them.

The Italian states insisted absolutely being part of the HRE whenever they needed the protection of the Emperor. Like when France had one of those "snack on Savoy" phases of theirs.

De facto the Emperor hadn't any power over Italy at all, but the rulers there still chose to respect his authority quite often. Like how Savoy became the Kingdom of Sardinia instead of the Kingdom of Piedmont
 
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macd21

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@Trin Tragula
Well, here's a piece of a gif from Wikipedia

View attachment 225282

Just like in the video, all of 1444 Italy except for Genoa and Ferrara are part of the HRE. The extent of "being part of HRE" can be disputed, but it's still part of it in some way.

Also, may be the HRE should jsut get some more love in the aspect of being part of it? That'd also help with the Provence and Burgundy issues (how is even part of Burgundy part of HRE but Burgundy isn't?)

Yes, on paper they were still in the HRE, but in practice they weren't. They heeded the authority of the emperor when it suited them, ignored him when it didn't. He helped them when it suited him, ignored them when it didn't.

As for Burgundy, it was a collection of territories acquired by the Duke of Burgundy. Some of these territories were technically in France, some were technically in the HRE. Hence the division.
 
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WeissRaben

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The Italian states insisted not being part of the HRE whenever the Emperor became too bothersome for them.

The Italian states insisted absolutely being part of the HRE whenever they needed the protection of the Emperor. Like when France had one of those "snack on Savoy" phases of theirs.

De facto the Emperor hadn't any power over Italy at all, but the rulers there still chose to respect his authority quite often. Like how Savoy became the Kingdom of Sardinia instead of the Kingdom of Piedmont
And still, he never was the King in Sardinia, like Prussia did, which means that he didn't create a kingdom from nothing but still assumed that title without regard for a new crown in the (nominal) area of the HRE. Really, the best way to represent Italy would be with some sort of Sphere of Influence mechanic like in V2: they were nominally in the HRE, the Emperor had absolutely no real authority over the region, but an intervention against external invaders would still be seen as encroaching in the Emperor's domain. It's complicated.
 

klingonadmiral

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And still, he never was the King in Sardinia, like Prussia did,

The King in Prussia was because of Poland. Brandenburg-Prussia only held Ducal Prussia (more or less what would later become East Prussia) while Poland held Royal Prussia (later West Prussia). Ducal Prussia was the remnants of the Ordensstaat of the Teutonic Knights, which secularized onder a Hohenzollern and eventually fell in a PU under BBurg.

Then when Frederick III (grandfather to Old Fritz) really wanted to be a King, he assumed the title of Prussia because it was outside the HRE (as the Emperor still claimed to Crown of the Kingdom of Germany), and the modifier in instead of of because large parts of Prussia were under Polish control (and with Prussia isolated from the rest of the realm the Poles could easily seize it, mere decades before Prussia became a Kingdom the Hohenzollerns ownership of the region was considered very tenous).

Frederick the Great then droped the in for of in 1772 after seizig most of Royal Prussia (except the city of Danzig/Gdansk) in the First Partition of Poland.

And only after the HRE finally came to an end the whole Brandenburg-Prussia Elector-Margrave-King-Duke mess came to an end and the posessions of the Hohenzollerns in Brandneburg became unified de jure in the Kingdom of Prussia. Before that technically the Hohenzollerns only were Kings of Prussia outside the HRE.

Savoy assumed the title of Sardinia for the same reasons, their mainlaind posessions were de jure part of the Kingdom of Italy (that very old Lombard realm that first Charlemagne and later Otto I conquered) which was also still claimed by the Emperor. But as Sardinia was never part of the Lombard Kingdom, and thus never conquered by the Karlings, and thus never claimed by the Hoiy Roman Emperors, the Habsburg were OK with that. It also helped that the Royal Crown of Sardinia already existed and just transferred from Aragon to Savoy.

Edit: Oops, from Austria to Savoy. Sardinia went to Austria and Sicily to Savoy after the War of the Spanish Sucession (making to Dukes of Savoy also Kings of Sicily, as the Aragonese just loved creating new Kingdoms left and right). After the War of the Quadruple Alliance Austria and Savoy then agreed to swap islands.
 
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PurpulaPhoenixum53

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Yes, on paper they were still in the HRE, but in practice they weren't. They heeded the authority of the emperor when it suited them, ignored him when it didn't. He helped them when it suited him, ignored them when it didn't.

This reminds me of John Locke's idea that when the government doesn't act the why that benefits the people (the Italian city states) they have the right to abolish it
 
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PeterCorless

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I still would really, really, really appreciate it if you didn't have to have the province of Rome part of the "recovery plan."

I can see taking the rest of the Papal States. But Rome itself?

If you try to feed it to a vassal, it will get spat out as soon as the Pope whines.

Trying to core if yourself? Oof.

Trying to vassalize the Papacy? Very difficult prospect.

I don't think there's enough "spinning plates" — game processes trying to placate the Italian rulers to keep some or all of them in the Empire. Right now, it just *boom!* happens. To all of them. All at once.

Make one of them a free city? Doesn't matter.

Take all provinces but one or two? Doesn't matter.

Currently at war and besieging Rome itself when the deadline goes by? Doesn't matter.

If the process was historically a "shades of grey" sort of thing, the game fails to model that.

I just did two Austria runs to try to "Rein in Italy." So far, it's damned tough. I can dismember Venice pretty well and take back what I need there.

But damned hard to crack that and also take back everything the Pope has by the timer's expiration.

I'd love it if there was something more "fade to black" with some gradations of loss of control, rather than just a quick light's out.

Or, for the love of God... don't make Rome a requisite.
 
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Trin Tragula

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The papal and imperial powers are age old adversaries by the time the game starts, and Italy is already all but out of your control for all practical matters. Subjugating the kingdom of Italy requires Rome because turning the tide of history isn't free and taking the swift action required to scare the Italians in line will make people upset.
Subjugating the pope is a drastic measure (though not exactly unheard of in our iwn timeline ;)) and that's more or less why it's there.
It's meant to be a bit of work but it's also not impossible. :) Italy leaving is also supposed to be the normal outcome unless you work actively to prevent it (real life emperors didn't even try and neither will the AI as its arguably too much of a gamble for it).
 
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grommile

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I still would really, really, really appreciate it if you didn't have to have the province of Rome part of the "recovery plan."

I can see taking the rest of the Papal States. But Rome itself?
You take it yourself, then you enact the decision that is available to you when all relevant provinces meet the required conditions, then you release Rome when the Pope whines (or hand it back with Return Province if you have the appropriate DLC.

You don't have to core it and you don't have to keep it.
 
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klingonadmiral

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The papal and imperial powers are age old adversaries by the time the game starts, and Italy is already all but out of your control for all practical matters. Subjugating the kingdom of Italy requires Rome because turning the tide of history isn't free and taking the swift action required to scare the Italians in line will make people upset.
Subjugating the pope is a drastic measure (though not exactly unheard of in our iwn timeline ;)) and that's more or less why it's there.
It's meant to be a bit of work but it's also not impossible. :) Italy leaving is also supposed to be the normal outcome unless you work actively to prevent it (real life emperors didn't even try and neither will the AI as its arguably too much of a gamble for it).

Could you at least add HRR to the tags that can control Rome without getting the "Occupation of Rome" modifier? If the HRE holds ROme, it's most likely because the Pope as a Prince of the Empire voted in favour of Renovatio Imperii
 
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Drakridr

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You don't have to core it and you don't have to keep it.

If your going to fight for it then you should keep it, but honestly pissing off catholicism (and your own HRE subjects, because as said before, while its happened, people dont like it when the pope loses power, more so in the HRE) isnt the right way to go.
 

Metz

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Why was 1490 chosen? Could it be extended to 1500?

Also can Romagna be split into Bologna and Ravenna (Venice owned Ravenna since 1440)? Plus Novara being split into Novara in the north and Alessandria in the south?
 

Jalinar

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Speaking as an italian and milanese, an interesting and realistic mechanic would be, once for ruler, the possibility to choose if you will support the Emperor, the Pope or neither, past 1490.
If you choose the Emperor, you will provide IA as if a member, have a relation boost with the Emperor (and other italian states that made that choice) and upset the Pope.
For the Pope, you concede una tantum some ducats to the Papal State, have a little relation boost with the Pope (and other italian states that made that choice) or Papal Influence as well, and upset the Emperor.
The AI can choose relying on current relations (if >100 with one, prefer that one; if both <100 or >100, prefer neither).

It was common to seek favor of one of those powers for an italian ruler of the period, even if the duchy/Signoria itself was not really tied to the HRE or the Papal State in terms of gameplay mechanics present at the moment.
 
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grommile

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Why was 1490 chosen? Could it be extended to 1500?
Every year you add to the deadline makes the task easier (and it's not really hard in the first place, though getting anything else done at the same time can be a bit tricky). What's wrong with 1490?
 

beckermt

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Speaking as an italian and milanese, an interesting and realistic mechanic would be, once for ruler, the possibility to choose if you will support the Emperor, the Pope or neither, past 1490.
If you choose the Emperor, you will provide IA as if a member, have a relation boost with the Emperor (and other italian states that made that choice) and upset the Pope.

This choice exists. At least, in a binary way. If you decide to stay in the HRE you get relationship penalties with all Italians and boosts with most (all?) HRE people. Then you can proceed to absorb NItaly without the HREmp getting involved. It's the BEST.
 
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