Shadow Realm Community Expansion - Development

[HousePet]

Well we already have High Elves in this game. This isn't much different.
Grey Elves would be equally likely to annoy Wizards of the Coast.

Anyone getting fussy about generic names being used by other franchises, when they get translated should have not used generic names to start with.

 

[Rodmar18]

Though, Dark Elves are already associated with night and darkness: Night Guard, their militia and pikeman, underground, spiders, necromancy (Meandor, Arachne). Also, is there ever night in the Shadow Realm? They have to be self-referred or nicknamed in reference to the Realm, or whatever change they occured since mending. Of course, once back to Athla, perhaps night is their preferred environment (hence Night Elves could fit). But they have to be named prior to their return, imo. Something like Changed Elves, Changed Ones, New Elves all look bland, and Arch-Elves look out-of-place. Would you know of a suitable name that doesn't use "Elf"?

By the way, the mending in the Realm occurred independantly and while those elves were still cut off from Athla, or were it all that time in relation with their cousins? Grevara seems to bring Sydran some news.
Likewise, the new Athlan elves named themselves High Elves as reference to their past (and perhaps Highmen), without any knowledge of what was happening in the Realm. As a Shadow Elf, I would almost find this despising not to be considered a "High" one.


"Shadow Elves" is good indeed (even Shadowborn would have fit!), but already used in AoW2; that's the only issue as for me.

 

[Draxynnic]

"Grey Elf" is explicitly not trademarked by WOTC, however. It's a term that Tolkein used, and might even go back further. Night Elf, on the other hand, is Blizzard-specific, and even if it wasn't (I don't know its trademark status at the moment) it doesn't really make sense as a name for a group that lives somewhere where 'night' is largely a meaningless term.

Regardless of the legal technicalities, I think it's worth considering the reaction of the common Joe Public. "Night Elf" is going to be Blizzard-specific in many people's eyes. "Grey Elf" is one of the classic generic terms such as the already-existing Wood, Dark, and High Elf denominations.

Regarding the interaction of the Shadow Elves with the Mending - my viewpoint is that the emergence of the Shadow Elves is independent of the Mending. High Elves are essentially going back to what the Elves were before the split (or, at least, that's what the High Elves believe) - while Shadow Elves have gone in a very different direction and made themselves into something that, while close in many respects to the Dark Elves, has never previously been seen on Athla. Broadly speaking, I don't see them taking offense at the name of the High Elves - they'll just see that as the term for elves that underwent the Mending, and which doesn't apply to them. I'm sure there are other tensions that will exist - the Shadow Elves might see the High Elves as being arrogant for taking that moniker (although the Shadow Elves are probably just as arrogant in their own way) and many Shadow Elves will likely consider the High Elves for being soft for having lost control of the situation on Athla while the Shadow Elves have been fighting and surviving in the Shadow World. But I don't see any Shadow Elf thinking that they should also be called "High Elves".

As for other terms... hrrrmn. There is a degree to which that they *are* Elves, so retaining the term makes sense, but if you'd rather not, it might well be worth chasing up something else in French faerie lore with a similar feel. I can try poking around my books for something suitable, but it might take a few days.

 

[Hiliadan]

I think Elfes du Crépuscule (Twilight Elves) is a good name. Do you really think it's going to be too long for display?

Absorbed magic: clarified that it's for 3 turns only, per Wikia (unless it's incorrect).

Ok, I checked in game, Absorbed Magic is something which was not in the Wikia (I'm adding it) and is the property given by Ground Magic. There is no need to say it lasts 3 turns because it's displayed in game in the unit panel. What needs to get the "last 3 turns" clarification is the ability, Ground Magic. @greyHaunt: could you please update the .xml?

I'm for updating the Archon Dwelling and Will Breaker's description with Drax. So please do update them on the .xml greyHaunt. I'm also adding/updating them on the Wikia.
Drax, do you confirm the update to the sentence about when Archons could be ascended from humans?

 

[Draxynnic]

Drax, do you confirm the update to the sentence about when Archons could be ascended from humans?

The one aboue adding "before they arrived on Athla"? Sure, consider that confirmed - it removes some of the ambiguity.

 

[greyHaunt]

Regarding the "2nd Roamer set" for Warband Campfire: I'll vote in favour of that. Although there's also an issue with 2 units with Shadow Shift being potentially really threatening early on in the game (first 10-15 turns or so).
When it comes to "Forgotten Throne projected climate/overlay", I'd rather favour Nimue to be Wetlands (with Autumn as a secondary in case) and Inioch to be Temperate (lore-friendly choices), but then Forgotten Throne of Mab has to switch from Wetlands to UG, which isn't great in my opinion.

In addition to that, I've got a few development topics for the team as well:

At the moment the Forgotten Throne structure has 1 Adventure set, which means there's only one line for Name and Description. I've got around to fixing the duplicate ToW entries for the Forgotten Throne and learned the hard way that this means I can't fully finish the task. Is there any point to continue this work further via adding 6 more Adventure entries, and setting each one to use the correct names and descriptions for each kind of Throne? This would allow us to diversify the Defender pool for each kind of Throne as well (let's say Mab would have Goblin elite units as Defenders, Nekron - elite Undead, Nimue would have high tier Naga and Merfolk units... you get the idea).

Another issue comes from the Heart of Shadows, which I've got a problem with.
First, there's no way to make the Shadow Walker effect display in the Unit Panel, because it is added as a Requisite (this type of entry doesn't have ToW and Unit Panel entries), and I couldn't get the Shadow Demon Slayer passive to be displayed as well.
Second, it seems that the effect itself is fairly weak for Shadow Elves and Draconians (only Shadow Demon Slayer is added, and it isn't exactly always useful), while all other races would kill to have it in their domain (straight-up nullifies the Shadow Realm debuffs). I'd appreciate any feedback on this one, as I can't figure out my own change proposal.

 

[Rodmar18]

I'd say that Shadow Elves would kill to have the Heart of Shadows in their domain, just to make sure the others won't.

 

[Rodmar18]

When it comes to "Forgotten Throne projected climate/overlay", I'd rather favour Nimue to be Wetlands (with Autumn as a secondary in case) and Inioch to be Temperate (lore-friendly choices), but then Forgotten Throne of Mab has to switch from Wetlands to UG, which isn't great in my opinion.

Mab's could use both UG and Wetlands if possible. If it's about tactical map scenery, this would stand for a wet cavern. On the strategical map, this would mean putting Mab's Throne next to a mountain (as if a UG entrance), the same way I figure that Nimue's Throne is a water terrain feature (with mermaids).

 

[Hiliadan]

Second, it seems that the effect itself is fairly weak for Shadow Elves and Draconians

Just like Goblins who start on Blight have no use for Heart of the Blight's climate bonus, and yet they are the most likely to be near such a Heart. That's not an issue. The +10 CP is already very nice in itself.

the Forgotten Throne structure has 1 Adventure set,

Mmh, so the description is linked to the adventure set and not to the structure itself? Weird way to code for devs. What about not putting any description for the adventure set? Does it remove an override of the adventure set vs the structure?

This would allow us to diversify the Defender pool for each kind of Throne

That's rather the other way round: the fact that we have only 1 defender set is not really because we are not "allowed" to diversify but because of a lack of time to design very strong defender sets which are equal to the current one.
Besides... the adventure set can be linked to multiple defender sets (there are 3 defender sets for the Thrones https://age-of-wonders-3.fandom.com/wiki/Template:Hiliadan/Forgotten_Throne). I don't think it's easy to make very strong defender sets with racial units but open to seeing some suggestions.

On the strategical map, this would mean putting Mab's Throne next to a mountain (as if a UG entrance), the same way I figure that Nimue's Throne is a water terrain feature (with mermaids).

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning? If you say Mab needs to be Wetland + Subterranean, then it won't be Mountains... It will be Wetland + Subterranean. Same for Nimue, if it's Wetland, it's not Water.
My opinion (as already posted some time ago) is that we need to be both coherent and pragmatic. All Thrones should project a climate, not an overlay, otherwise it's not homogeneous. And climate are visible whereas having a patch of Wetland on the Shadow layer can be missed by the player as other patches of Wetlands can be found elsewhere. So if Nimue's Throne projects Wetlands it will not be as impressive or remarkable as the other Thrones.

 

[Rodmar18]

For one, I misunderstood you: you must refer to an overlay that applies to the whole map like what happens on Scen 3A. I thought you were talking about the neighbourhood around thrones (strategical feature or site), and the scenery and tiles that we could find if we enter such a site in tactical mode. That why I mentioned a mountain background hex (exactly like the frozen cascade in Scen 3A (UG, to the west)), and a reef island (exactly like some water sites) on the strategical map. As for the tactical map, it could be a cavern scenery along with wet tiles for Mab, and a drown temple for Nimue.

For two, as regard to the shifting overlays, I wouldn't mind having a patch of terrain not as visible as a volcanic or a snowy climate overlay. Remember that SR is for the experienced player! However, if I can see that an overlay can be changed and changed again without altering the map too much (terrain staying unchanged), I fear that the game can't remember the ancient terrain before it is changed by some 'Path of' ability (turning the land into dense vegetation or barrens) or some spells such as "Drench the land". I mean, these changes don't affect a pure overlay. We would end with a marshy zone even after Nimue looses her hold on the land.
Now, if the game can remember, I still think that (Wetland + Temperate) would suit Nimue best. About (Wetland +) Noxious for Mab, I'm a bit reluctant, because Mab is not the mistress of poison and decay. She's associated with the underground, its riches, and its denizens, even if Goblins do happen to be both immune and crafty when it comes to poisons and diseases. By the way, in AoW2, poison was a Water spell. Also, if you want something impressive, you could get inspired by AoW2 Drench the land: as time passed, low-level hexes turned into water pools, and see banks ate inland. Prehaps add a site that grants Basic Navigation!

 

[Refineus]

I'm not sure if this is the case already. I believe Elder Spiders queen should have throw web instead of having the ability on touch? We have throw net, I would very much like to see the ability on a throw instead to make it really distinguish.

 

[Hiliadan]

I'm not sure if this is the case already. I believe Elder Spiders queen should have throw web instead of having the ability on touch

This is not the case now: http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Hiliadan/Elder_Queen_Spider
That's an option but it requires creating one more ability (and thus an icon) and it would also make them really powerful in terms of immobilization. I haven't faced any in game yet so I'm not clear how good they are. Maybe they require this to make them as strong as the other Elders...

 

[Rodmar18]

I don't want to boast my tactical skills, but fact is that Frostlings get Frost debuffing support units, plus Icescapers. Add in a Mammoth Rider with Stone Skin, or an elite Yeti with Frozen Attack, and the Elder Queen Spider is doomed if I recollect well. Granted, a single Manticore Rider would be doomed as well, but it may charge and deal 34+ damage if backed up with a couple of Warlord combat spells. The spider will try and web its tanky opponent instead of one-hit poor Icescaper, allowing for a full round of freezing chances (notwithstanding that it phases right into enemy ranks, and is thus easily flanked since the very first round).
Perhaps, it could have Fearsome, Fear Strike or a Fear Aura (if it's not the case).

 

[Hiliadan]

Changing the ability from Touch to Short range would not change that. And any unit which is not Frost resistant will be doomed all the same. Maybe the issue is not so much the Webbing but the Phasing which means it get isolated compared to other units. At the same time, removing Phase from it does not sound like a very attractive idea.

It gets Fear Strike on Expert but that won't change anything. We could give it Fearsome but that would really be in line with the normal spiders.
I don't think your example is representative of the strength of the Spider, nor should it be dealt with. As I wrote, and as you pointed out, that strategy works vs any unit which is not Frost resistant, as long as you have the numbers with you (+ you rely on Elite units).

 

[Rodmar18]

What about Disgusting Stench, Tireless, and Webbing Strike ("any melee attack has a chance to web target enemy unit"), and if we go for an implementation of JRRT's Ugoliant, Path of Decay, Devour Corpse, and some Darkness/Shadow abilities (like Ugoliant's insatiable light hunger)? Her name means "Darkness Weaver" in Quenya.
Some lore in French.

 

[Hiliadan]

Webbing Strike is a nice idea, though it doesn't exist yet so that would be a new ability and I think we should avoid introducing new abilities now.
The Queen Spiders do not have Tireless and Disgusting Stench so I'm a bit loath to give it to the Elder. But maybe for Tireless... That would not solve the Freezing issue though. And not really the Phasing issue either (due to flanking).

If we really want to avoid the Phasing problem, then it could get Vigilant, but it's the same issue as with the rest: not sure how it's justified compared to the T3 spiders or how does it fit with lore.

 

[Rodmar18]

By the way, are you making the next tier for each three queen spiders, or rather an unique, ultimate monster that gathers all the good points from each spider family? If the later, I think that you shouldn't avoid diverging from vanilla spiders' abilities too much, just balance her so that she doesn't become a Tier6.

 

[Refineus]

What sort of tactical maps do we use for shadow realm terrain? Blighted terrain tactical map?

I'm not familiar with the tactical maps and how they are modded in game in the package manager. Its possible to create new enviroments on ligtning, fog, shadow etc.

Can we link new enviroment sets and apply them on top the shadow realm, autumm and tundra instead of using the standard ones?

Create a dark violet feel for the shadow realm and maybe orange/brown set for autumm?

 

[Rodmar18]

If you're asking about current implementation, then I'd say that we already have nice bare, purple environment with lightning in the far background. But I can't say if this is always the case. It could be worth taking a few screenshots to have a gallery, I figure.

 

[Refineus]

Today I started the research a little about skin colours. Its sickens me that we only have 5 actual shadow elf characters to choose from. So I started to make some examples in forms of altering their skin colours. It's not difficult, but their skin can get quite purple even I choose a blue one.

My goal is to achieve a rooster of characters between blue-teal-green with a point towards grey toned. Should be doable. Is there any more colours shadow elves should have?