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unmerged(1823)

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Your post is completely delusional seen in the light of how it was indeed possible for them to create a lot more patches for their early products back when their team was much smaller than today.

and again we're not talking about creating an expansion for free but about creating an official fix for a limited amount of known bugs.

Always this uniformed argument that is so irritating.

We have increased the amount of money and people spent working on patches for every single project. I've personally spent 90% of my time during 8 months after hoi3 went gold working on patches for hoi3.

Back when we had a team of 6 instead of a mainteam of 8 and an expansion-team of 3 there was two very different things regarding the post-process development.

(A) Before Hoi2 we only budgetted for ONE patch, done during the first month. Nothing else was ever planned for or done. Since then we've changed it to allow for 3 major patches if needed.

(B) All extra patches beyond budgeted patches have come from developers (mostly me) working weekends for their love of the game. This is happening much less nowadays, as enough death-threats & name-calling kind of make you not that keen on spending your spare-time adding features to a game.
 

Nats

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I don't really like to get involved in these types of discussion (dont look at me that way you know what I mean >_>) but why should paradox be at all concerned about fixing bugs in HOI3? PI is, first and foremost, a business. They exist to MAXIMIZE profit. If they believe it will be more profitable to release Sempre Fi than to patch HOI3, then they will release Sempre Fi. Why should they be expected to undertake a job where they will lose money?

God I hope this post is tongue in cheek. Otherwise you are seriously sad mate if you think any business will stay in business long releasing products that are not suitable for their purpose.
 

vbal

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Always this uniformed argument that is so irritating.

Just remember that the army of us that actually see and appreciate what you are doing is probably bigger, just that we don't scream that much, we are just playing the game instead:).

But anyway, vi tackar för er dedikation!
 

joeenochs

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We have increased the amount of money and people spent working on patches for every single project. I've personally spent 90% of my time during 8 months after hoi3 went gold working on patches for hoi3.

Hi Johan,
first let me say it shows great commitment that you post on the weekend.

To your argument, customers don't care about the number of patches or the time spent on them, they care about the state of the game.

True, the scope of HOI3 is fantastic so you can't expect a perfect game right away. But the 1.4 quality is more or less what customers expected at release date.

And you must admit that you overdesigned certain features like the wheather system. And this development time was then missing to make HOI3 a balanced game. I love and appreciate when you try truly revolutionary and risky things like the AI control system. But at the end of the day customers measure the game against what you write on the box.

Anyway if after three expansions I will get a magnificent game I will be happy
and after 1.4 I am also happy with what I got with the vanilla game.
But one thing which I feel a little stupid about (although I don't have to look after each Euro luckily) is that when the game was not really working I had to pay a premium price while by the time it was working acceptably I could have gotten it for a discount price.

So I say you should think about how you prevent your most loyal customers to feel stupid when they buy your games at release time.
 
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Just remember that the army of us that actually see and appreciate what you are doing is probably bigger, just that we don't scream that much, we are just playing the game instead:).

But anyway, vi tackar för er dedikation!

+1!

Now back to playing the game!
 

RickInVA

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Always this uniformed argument that is so irritating.

We have increased the amount of money and people spent working on patches for every single project. I've personally spent 90% of my time during 8 months after hoi3 went gold working on patches for hoi3.

Back when we had a team of 6 instead of a mainteam of 8 and an expansion-team of 3 there was two very different things regarding the post-process development.

(A) Before Hoi2 we only budgetted for ONE patch, done during the first month. Nothing else was ever planned for or done. Since then we've changed it to allow for 3 major patches if needed.

(B) All extra patches beyond budgeted patches have come from developers (mostly me) working weekends for their love of the game. This is happening much less nowadays, as enough death-threats & name-calling kind of make you not that keen on spending your spare-time adding features to a game.

I am very pleased to see information like this posted. It gives me an insight into the gaming industry that I lacked before.

To comment a little on the information:

A) Having been a project manager I understand that you need to budget and have an internal expectation for what will be needed to support your product. Without that you can't hire or price your product effectivly. On the other hand, given that it is possible to publish a product that, for various reasons (some good, maybe some bad), is in need of much support I would hope the company would be willing to re-evaluate the situation and at a minimum provide as many patches as necessary so that the product works as advetised (I am not explicitly saying that HOI3 does not work as advertised, some may think so some not). I would think the reputation of the company would require it.

B) I applaud any employee that volunteers their time to work on support for the game. I regret that this is necessary (see A above).

c) I also encourage the ownership of PI to consider the situation from the consumer's point. As of patch 1.4 consumers have a product that is 90% working (your experience may vary, just using that as an example). The company is explicitly saying that there will be no more patches for the product. I hope PI can appreciate that a consumer may not feel this is sufficient, possibly to the point that purchase of further PI products is in doubt. Ah, but wait says PI! If you give us some more money to purchase this expansion all will be better! I also hope PI can appreciate how this will anger some comsumers. Not having a fully working product, the company wants more money to provide them with a fully working product. Possibly not the way to build a good reputation as a company.

Imagine if you purchaased a car, and a lot of the functions didn't work. You take it back to the dealer and they fix some of them, but after 3 repairs they say, "Nope, not fixing this any more. You want it to work better, buy another car from us!" I'm pretty sure people would stop buying cars there.

Why do I take my time to post this? Because I love PI games, I want the company to prosper so that it can make more of these great games. But I do need to be able to play these great games, not just enjoy them as a work of art. So PI, perhaps you need to take another look at your development process, both pre and post release. Because even though some people are intemperant with their posts, or even downright mean and nasty, as consumers we do have a reasonable expectation that what we buy will work, and that if it does not that it will be fixed until it does, not just fixed until PI is tired of fixing it.
 

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(B) All extra patches beyond budgeted patches have come from developers (mostly me) working weekends for their love of the game. This is happening much less nowadays, as enough death-threats & name-calling kind of make you not that keen on spending your spare-time adding features to a game.

I think most of the people here appreciate your work and enjoy the game. I'd hate to see you lose your enthusiasm because of the minority who doesn't. keep up the good work!
 

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Imagine if you purchaased a car, and a lot of the functions didn't work. You take it back to the dealer and they fix some of them, but after 3 repairs they say, "Nope, not fixing this any more. You want it to work better, buy another car from us!" I'm pretty sure people would stop buying cars there.
I don't think this is a good simile. How about this instead. You buy a car with a lot off functions not working the way they should, but the repair off the last one is so deeply into the engine it's not worth the time to fix it. It's cheaper and easier to buy an entire new engine for the car to fix it, and as a bonus you also get a faster and more powerful car.

This is not because the manufacturer hates you or tries to milk you for money, but because there was a mistake or slightly wrong priorities during production off the first version.
 

coreymas

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It would be great if (for example) people who preordered (and so paid full price) recieved 1st expansion little bit cheaper (even few € would be nice).

And what about me... who could not pre-order for a reason... who bought a physical copy at the store the day it came out....?

Not feasible.
 

6354201

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True, the scope of HOI3 is fantastic so you can't expect a perfect game right away. But the 1.4 quality is more or less what customers expected at release date.

This is my problem with the state of HoI3. A game on release date is going to have bugs and need patches, just as HoI3 does now. The fact that it took months and four patches to get to a state that in the end still needs fixing is beyond irritating.

I appreciate what Paradox does as a company and the extra time invested in patches that might not be required. At the same time, I want a game that works well and has good gameplay, and when those requirements aren't fulfilled I could honestly care less about excuses. Paradox is a business, not a charity, and if a business can't provide the product as promised then it doesn't really matter what excuses are at play.
 

RickInVA

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I don't think this is a good simile. How about this instead. You buy a car with a lot off functions not working the way they should, but the repair off the last one is so deeply into the engine it's not worth the time to fix it. It's cheaper and easier to buy an entire new engine for the car to fix it, and as a bonus you also get a faster and more powerful car.

This is not because the manufacturer hates you or tries to milk you for money, but because there was a mistake or slightly wrong priorities during production off the first version.

It was the best one I could come up with on the fly! :rofl:

But seriously, in your example it might be better to get a new engine, but the customer wouldn't be asked to pay for it.

Consumers have a reasonable expectation that what they buy will work as represented and that if it doesn't that it will be fixed until it does. That is not an unlimited expectation, but a reasonable one. Certainly there is room to discuss if 3 patches is reasonable, but I think that the general assertion that customers have a reasonable expectation that what they buy will work as represented is accurate and a foundation principle of the modern economy.
 

unmerged(85507)

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(B) All extra patches beyond budgeted patches have come from developers (mostly me) working weekends for their love of the game. This is happening much less nowadays, as enough death-threats & name-calling kind of make you not that keen on spending your spare-time adding features to a game.

Balor,

first I want to say that it is great that someone of you finally reacts. I believe much anger would not be there if there was a serious plan containing what bugs and misconceptions are recognized by the developers and what could/will be done. But on the latest change lists and in the previews of Semper Fi most known problems do not seem to be adressed.

Most people who complain do not do it because of the 40 euros/dollars/whatever but because they are idealists as well who want to like the games but do not feel taken seriously any longer. Please do not get a wrong impression because of some madmen.
 

Depp

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I don't think most people doubt the commitment of paradox, just rather their lack of sound release routines.

I mean, had working 3 months more on hoi3 before release really cost you more than you would have earned getting a good reputation and rating on the game? The game could have sold alot more on release if it had been worked on a few more months, and you would have had more focus on the expansion afterward.

I love the kind of games you make, but Hoi3 burned me bad, really bad, and I have been with since Eu1.

But I guess this is actually water on the bridge now, nothing to do about it than do the only thing customers can, not buy any more games, at least until they hit bargin bin to show displeasure. It's after all a market, and all developers do is provide products, and customers do is buy or not buy them. But I'm still curious and will read all I can about semper fi until I can't withstand it any more :) A ten year addiction is hard to break after all...
 

unmerged(3834)

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What's often left unsaid is that Paradox really should slow down their release schedule. I mean, the company can't be on the edge of bankcrupcy seeing the rapid expansion including overseas in the last 10 years while there's virtually no competition at the genre and gametype.

I still remain firm that a small patch fixing limited amount of critical issues demanding very limited resources would do good from financial and PR point of view. May it be some time after Semper Fi has been released or even before that.

This is happening much less nowadays, as enough death-threats & name-calling kind of make you not that keen on spending your spare-time adding features to a game.

The community is probably among the finest out there but of course there are some unfortunate idiots too. With all due respect I think it's pretty unfair to say that because of these rotten tomatoes the community does not deserve at least some bug fixes that are already unofficially fixed by community modders & thus could be easily implemented. But as I take it based on the statements there will not be any more patches after v1.4 so i rest my case.
 
Last edited:

Federkiel

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Always this uniformed argument that is so irritating.

We have increased the amount of money and people spent working on patches for every single project. I've personally spent 90% of my time during 8 months after hoi3 went gold working on patches for hoi3.

Back when we had a team of 6 instead of a mainteam of 8 and an expansion-team of 3 there was two very different things regarding the post-process development.

(A) Before Hoi2 we only budgetted for ONE patch, done during the first month. Nothing else was ever planned for or done. Since then we've changed it to allow for 3 major patches if needed.

(B) All extra patches beyond budgeted patches have come from developers (mostly me) working weekends for their love of the game. This is happening much less nowadays, as enough death-threats & name-calling kind of make you not that keen on spending your spare-time adding features to a game.


Thanks Johan for taking some time of your precious weekend and adressing us customers. It's things like this which do give PI a unique selling proposition: dedication and attention towards the customers.

In general i believe that PI could be a bit better off if released versions were more polished. PI as a business seems to operate on a basis of some first line sales but then and for a longer timespan on secondary and tertiary selling waves. This mostly works via massive discounts, special packs and continuous support to finally make the games a finished product.

If the quality of the product hitting the shelves were better, the primary sales could be much better as well. Gaming magazines would not only talk about the potential of a game but it's real enjoyment value. The customers make for peer-to-peer effects - not only via this forum. If a product meets the expected standards, it will also be recommended by fans.

Delaying this effect for months to years and with a much lower price for the finally sufficiently patched game, the margin to 'keep the wheels rolling in Stockholm' might very likely be a small one. Greater sales numbers become mandatory as a consequence.


Well, it's your business, your policy and your approach to deal with the market. I only mentioned a thought based on the 4 Ps of marketing.
 

cougar46

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(B) All extra patches beyond budgeted patches have come from developers (mostly me) working weekends for their love of the game. This is happening much less nowadays, as enough death-threats & name-calling kind of make you not that keen on spending your spare-time adding features to a game.

:( I appreciate what you do, and I thank you for all you do. It's a shame a few bad apples have to spoil the bunch though, hopefully you shut them all up with Semper Fi.

In general i believe that PI could be a bit better off if released versions were more polished. PI as a business seems to operate on a basis of some first line sales but then and for a longer timespan on secondary and tertiary selling waves. This mostly works via massive discounts, special packs and continuous support to finally make the games a finished product.

If the quality of the product hitting the shelves were better, the primary sales could be much better as well. Gaming magazines would not only talk about the potential of a game but it's real enjoyment value. The customers make for peer-to-peer effects - not only via this forum. If a product meets the expected standards, it will also be recommended by fans.


Delaying this effect for months to years and with a much lower price for the finally sufficiently patched game, the margin to 'keep the wheels rolling in Stockholm' might very likely be a small one. Greater sales numbers become mandatory as a consequence.

But would the greater sales rise at the same level as costs? Would the extra revenue generated by creating a more "polished" game cover the added months of salaries, the hiring of an external QA team, and the licensing of added tools? It's easy for us as consumers to make statements like yours, after all it's not our money and our livelehoods on the line. Fredrick isn't stupid and I'm sure neither are any financial people he has working with him, I'm sure they take such things into consideration and look at what formula will generate peak revenue and profit. Their unbelievable dedication to supporting their games post release should show they aren't simply trying to screw us over for a few extra bucks saved from cutting corners.

The reality of things is that what you see done is just necessary, you may not like it and can certainly disagree with it but remember you're going off what you think you know against people whose jobs it is to thoroughly research and generate projections and financial plans and are privy to much more data then you. It's easy for us as consumers to make such suggestions, it's not our money to spend and ultimately we want better quality products, always and we mask our selfishness through "suggestions" to improve the company. I'm not trying to say HoI3 isn't flawed or that it's release states should have been better, but from a business level I have no reasons to doubt Paradox is doing anything less then all they can. These after all are the people looking at the books, writing the checks, planning for the future, ect. If more could be done on the company level I'm sure it would be, Fredrick went and bought several developers and a few IP rights so hopefully they get some more cash flowing in that will allow them to improve on that strategy, but for HoI3 I think it had far more to do with Paradox biting off more then they could chew then with their actual business philosophy. It just brought the inherit flaws of that philosophy further into the light.
 

telesien

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I don't like how pricing works in the game-industry. It hurts the early adopters.

Maybe I didn't exactly get what you mean, but I think that is the same with every new technology and since every new game brings different set of problems you can think of it as a new technology.

Small example to illustrate my case. My friend got portable cd player when it was new technology while I got it like 2 years later. His was heavier, larger, needed more power to run and you couldn't even use it while walking since the cd needed to be stable in order to play. Mine got it all and I paid only half price. That is the usual life-cycle of every new type of product and everyone buying it right when it first comes pays more for less and his only advantage is that he has the thing which others don't.
 
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