seriosuly over/underestimating forces

[grumphie]

for a while, i've been having a lot of trouble getting a blanace in building up armies. the fighting on itself isnt the largest problem(i can do fairly ok with that), but it's getting the balance while building up right that's holding me back from actually doing decent in a full game.

to test, i modded custom mode to give myself insane amount of points in the '39 start date as several nations, and build an army i'd think i need at that time, and see what im doign wrong.

it seems as if i structually overestimate the amoutn of troops i need, while structurally udnerestimatign the forces i need to hold a position.

for example, SU test. i filled the western border with 4 3inf-1arty-1AT divisions, and a few more mobile armour units just behind the front. lighter version of that at teh finnish border, mountaineers ont he turkey/persia border, and some 3inf-1art at the japanese front, and using 2GAR-1art to garrison ports.

the western border instantly ran out of supply and i just could not get enough supply there even at peace. even when i upgraded massive parts of the land to max infrastructure level. as you understand - that did not work out well against troops that were suppplied. the ountaineers didnt run out of supply, but did seem to massivly outnumber everythign in the region. and the japanese front just entirely crumbled away insatntly even though they had supply - 2 divisions a province seemed to be far too little to not get overrun there.

when i did the same as germany, it was even worse. my entire army suffering ginourmous supply problems, with only a handfull of units having even a tiny biut of supply, while the vast majority got nothing. as a result, they were just swept away by any attacks. later looking at the static modifiers, it seemed liek i thought over 1600 units were an normal amoutn to start WW2 with. oops.

it doesnt get any better if i slowly build up either. whiel i don't reach nearly the same amoutn fo units to cripple my supply, i do AIM for the same amount, making me weak due to having no to very little forces on other fronts

as you can most liekly tell form that, i seem to fail horribly at making a correct amoutn of troops for fronts, even when i have unlimited recources. vast amoutn of units on the offence, crippling supply. not enough units when defending, getting overrun. either too many planes or too little, and often i don't even get to start the navy(where i really have no clue what im doing. i know what a mission does, but building fleets and using correct forces for the mission is entirely beyond me).

what is it that im missing here? can i make due with far smaller amounts of units? do i stack higher when i want to defend a line(4 full divisions got routed at teh maginot line, but thatw as to be expected with no supply or ORG)? am i overlookign something key?

 

[Opanashc]

Yes. "Amateurs study tactics - professionals study logistics"(c).
As Germany, you should aim for ~400 or so brigades to start the war. Against SU, ~500-600 brigades should be enough.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?577185-Germany-Tutorial-Take-2. - read and follow this tutorial. It should teach you the idea.

 

[themousemaster]

My opinion:

If you are only testing as the GER/SU front, you aren't getting the full picture. That is THE theater where crazy numbers and techs of units are colliding; if you are going to "understand" the system such that you can gauge what is needed where and by whom, then doing a couple more tests with, say, the NATCHI/JAP theater, or even playing the GER/FRA theater, can help quite a bit.




More specifically though, I want to know this:

You said you:

for example, SU test. i filled the western border with 4 3inf-1arty-1AT divisions, and a few more mobile armour units just behind the front.

What defines "filled"? How many of those 3INF-1AT-1ART divisions did you have per province on the front?



Also, while 3INF-1ART-1AT will be "inoculated" from enemy armor, all those AT's are eating supply when very few of them will actually end up fighting a tank. You can cut back the supply drain by making your basic line infantry unit 2INF-1ART, and then using your mobile armored forces to counter any enemy attempt at a tank breakthrough. Both strategies work if done right, but you are seeing firsthand the major drawback of a "invincible infantry division" design, and (it seems) not accounting for it.


But first things first, just how many divisions per province are we talking about

 

[grumphie]

on "major" borders, i stack 4 divisions(which i make a corp in the OOB, so not filled out to their limit). major being the large battle front - the maginot line, border with germany, aroudn places i want to make a breaktrhough. other fronts generally have to make due with 3 divisions where attacks in decent sizes are a possibility(i.e. german sneak attack through hungary), and 2 on fronts i dont expect much off(SU-japan border, althoguh that ended up working out horribly - i certainly did not expect to see armoured units comign from japan). borders i don't deem high risks don't run the full 3INF-1ART-1AT composition tho - often more amongst the lines of 3INF-1art or 2INF-1art.

i tried to avoid any nations that have significant naval possessions, as i honestly do not have a clue how to manage that. i knwo how to land stuff and how to order them to partol and the like, but i have absolutly no idea how to build a somewhat balanced fleet for certain tasks.

any breakthrough units i run tend to be 4 divisions of arm-2mot-spart-TD, all in one province, with several attacking at once. i suspect that being the largest problem with my supplies, but i don't exactly run many of these and still suffer supply problems where theyre nto even slightly close to these units, while supply itself is fine.

EDIT: on the AT divisions, they might indeed be fairly useless while facing tanks, but they do give combined arms bonus(always nice) and, at least to me, are far better at halting armour. stopping armour with your own reserves depends on both being able to outgun their armor and getting there in any timely fashion - if my armour is in an attack of its own, go heavy damage, or i face superiour numebrs of armour i'd be forced to fall back and stall for quite a while, and makes attackign armour on plains suicide. with AT brigades beign plenty i can depend on armor being stopped when they have to be stopped. i could probaly cut them to only 50% or even 25% of the divisions if the terrain isnt in its favour in the first place.

 

[GarfunkeL]

You do not need 4 divisions per front.

Usually, 2 divisions is enough to prevent the AI from making anything more than probing attacks. In critical spots, you might need 3. Along quiet stretches, or while you're making a major offensive that prevents the enemy from attacking elsewhere, you can manage with just 1 division per province.

I'll give you few examples as GER:

1) When the war starts, I have 2 divisions in each province facing France. It is extremely rare for the French AI to attack. The provinces along Belgian and Dutch borders have 1 division per province. These are mostly GAR/GAR/MP or MIL/MIL/MP divisions that later end up guarding ports. Facing Poland, I have 1-2 divisions per province, depending on what the Poles have on their side of the border, except for the locations where my mobile formations will perform their breakthroughs.

2) Starting Barbarossa, I generally have 2 divisions in each province facing USSR, though the provinces that don't have defensive bonuses (plains with no river facing the Red Army) get a third one. Soviet AI tests the borders for few days but, again once the mobile formations take off, it cannot spare any units elsewhere, meaning that I can start thinning my side of the border down to 1 division per province, which also allows me to then make deep breakthroughs to encircle the Soviets.

Note that this technique only works if you diligently maintain reserves, to ensure that the enemy cannot make a clean breakthrough if you end up miscalculating at some point.

 

[magitsu]

Indeed the AI is quite predictable. 2x4 brigade divs should be enough to prevent SOV AI from attacking through the shortest route (2 province wide corridor with land forts) to Finland.
It doesn't want to commit into fights that would turn into attrition battles, even though it might had huge superiority in MP.

 

[grumphie]

however, when i put 2 4 brigade divisions on the border of manchuria/japan they just got entirely overrun. not just a few probing attacks, but completly pushed back and overrun.

while i do keep reservers(generally a 4 division stack at the HQ), so far they mainly proven too slow to really quickly plunge holes and have mainly been usefull to support units that are walking on the end of their skin. am i supposed to keep more(possibly smaller) reserves closer to the front or am i just using them wrong.

if that IS indeed the right amount, im probaly also using far too large armoured groups - 5 corps of 4 divivisions with ARM-2xMOT-SPART-TD, spread out over 2-3 points where i want to break through and try for an encriclement.

EDIT: in this let's play i've been following he uses forces similar to what i've been runnign so far on the westernf ront(just more inf and ART and less AT's) yet he never gets into supply problems - why? does CGM introduce such a massive demand for supply that it never recoveres?

 

[GarfunkeL]

No, CGM doesn't automatically change supplies and is incapable of affecting supply mechanics.

1. Make sure that your Supply Production tech and the two Supply Rate/Throughput techs are up-to-date.
2. Make sure that your industry is actually producing supplies and that you're not trading them away.
3. Make sure that your units can trace a path to your capital OR to a port.
4. You can use ship convoys and air transports to boost supply levels in two ways:
4a. Make a supply convoy from the other side of your capital to near your units (for GER example - from Kiel to Riga)
4b. Have air transports "bunny hop" between airfields, so that a single TRA takes care of each "leap" until you reach the front line.
5. Improve infrastructure as that allows higher amounts of supplies to be transported through the provinces.

Note that the supply system sends X amount of supplies out from the capital and they travel 1 province a day. Each province can handle only a certain amount of supplies each day. Unneeded supplies are then sent back to the capital - this is why you don't want ship convoys from EAST of Berlin to move even further east but rather from WEST of Berlin to Riga/Sevastopol/Leningrad/Archangel and so on.

As for getting overrun - well, the AI will attack if it cannot do so elsewhere and if it calculates that the odds are at least somewhat favourable. OOS defenders are pretty worthless as their ORG is going down every day that they lack supplies and they cannot reinforce, meaning that putting more divisions into a supply "black hole" only makes the problem worse.

 

[szcott69]

( Note: the following requires micro-management)

What Germany has in abundance is Leadership, maximize it and exploit it. By this I mean maintain 140% Officer ratio, 5 brigades per Div, 5 Div per Corp, 5 Corp per Army etc.

Also, at the start of the game, take your best leaders and put them in frontline divisions, till they max out (lev 9) then put them in charge of your Army groups, now you get 45% supply requirement reduction.

In a VH game I had 2-3 div per province and the Soviets had Stacks so High I couldn't count them, looked scary to say the least. I started out doing a couple large encirclement's and before you new it their stacks came down to 2-3, then 1 then they were scrambling to maintain even 1.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

To avoid supply issues:

A good rule of thumb to be reasonably sure you can supply everything is to never have an army in a given front than consumes more supply than the max supply throughput of a single province in that area (turn on the supply map mode to check it and the ledger to see your army supply consumption). Even if you abide by this rule you will most likely still have issues because inside enemy territory your supply throughput will be cut at least in half (...) so you'll need to run supply convoys to the forward ports (as you capture them) and probably some air supply too. Also a good OOB will go a long way to avoid supply issues because it can drastically reduce the army needs. Put all your logistics wizards in charge of HQs starting at Theater HQ the only exception is the army group leader where you should put your highest skilled leader regardless of his traits. The OOB is more effective if the divisions are always in range of the HQs.

 

[themousemaster]

however, when i put 2 4 brigade divisions on the border of manchuria/japan they just got entirely overrun. not just a few probing attacks, but completly pushed back and overrun.

That's news. Though, if Manchuria is a problem, my advice is to abandon Vladivostok; if you look, you will notice that there is a part at the north extreme of Manchuria where the distance between it and the ocean to it's north is, like, 3 or 4 provinces. If you form your line *there*, you will need fewer divisions.

What is your officer% as SOV? 2 divisions of 3INF-1AT-1ART should be pretty effective in stopping JAP units (even if I don't recommend that)

while i do keep reservers(generally a 4 division stack at the HQ), so far they mainly proven too slow to really quickly plunge holes and have mainly been usefull to support units that are walking on the end of their skin. am i supposed to keep more(possibly smaller) reserves closer to the front or am i just using them wrong.

Unless you are a country that uses swarm tactics (NATCHI), keeping reserves of Infantry behind the front lines is unrecommended (not exactly realistic, eh?). Put them all on the front.

Generally, when people in this game are talking about reserves, they are talking about Armored corps behind the line, since those can get to any location, and provide Hard Targets for the opponents, in fairly short order, without the need to use the risky Strategic Redeploy option.

Personally, for the major juggernauts (GER and SOV), and assuming 2 divisions per provincial front, I like having a 3-1-1 setup: 3 corps of "line infantry", 1 corps of LARM-based fast response, and 1 corps of ARM-based for the major counterpunch. (My ARM slotted for breakthroughs go in a different army entirely, not that the 2 don't overlap when the opportunity arises).

NOTE: When doing this, I always using the HQ unit itself as a "division" by placing combat brigades in it. This allows a single corps to put 2 divisions on 3 provinces apiece equally, and the LARM behind it can "cover" 3 corps by having 2 divisions of itself behind each corps' center (the HQ containing slower one gets placed in the middle area, of course).

i tried to avoid any nations that have significant naval possessions, as i honestly do not have a clue how to manage that. i knwo how to land stuff and how to order them to partol and the like, but i have absolutly no idea how to build a somewhat balanced fleet for certain tasks.

Then play NATCHI, and face off against JAP. Make it your goal to push them off the mainland, and then call it a victory and restart the game (or, alternatively, after pushing them off the mainland, start building a navy, so that you can get a handle on what that entails, since your only major opponent is now no longer in a position to do anything about it). I have a NATCHI guide in my sig if you want to read it.

 

[Kovax]

Incidentally, you don't need to create a breakthrough with your armored divisions: use your INF divisions to open a hole, then exploit that hole with your faster Armored units.

TDs are probably slowing your divisions down, and if your armor techs are up to date, you shouldn't need them in the same division as ARM. I occasionally put 2xMOT+TD+AC(or SPART) units into an armored Corps to follow up the tanks and hold the breakthrough corridor until regular INF can relieve them.

The GER army, the last time I ran them, had roughly 2 INF divisions on each border province with the SU, and I had 3 Armor Corps in that entire Theater (a 4th Armor Corps was kept in the West in case of UK landings). I ended up having to build a few extra INF divisions and redeploy a few more from the West as the Eastern front expanded. After several breakthroughs, and at least 3 major encirclements which netted 15-20 divisions each, as well as numerous smaller pockets of 1-5 Soviet divisions, they were down to 1-2 divisions per province along the entire front. With one brigade slot in practically every division tied up as AT, that left them with only 3-6 "effective" brigades per province against my Infantry, and I was able to attack most of the single divisions one-on-one using my 3xINF+ART divisions with better than even combat odds (but used 2+ divisions whenever possible in order to end the fights faster and limit Manpower losses).

That was about the limit of what the infrastructure could support, even with around 5-10 Infrastructure upgrades going on at any given time to reduce bottlenecks along the major supply corridors. Spamming Infrastructure outside of those supply "highways" is a waste. I don't see how you could supply 4 divisions per province, even with airlifts to the front and convoys to the few relevant ports, and an armor-intensive army is a lot worse in that respect.

If it's too much to deal with, then there's the "Arcade Mode" button to simply ignore the distribution of supplies and have it magically teleport to the divisions.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Incidentally, you don't need to create a breakthrough with your armored divisions: use your INF divisions to open a hole, then exploit that hole with your faster Armored units.

Yeah, that's what I do as well - use INF to crack open the first line, then pour through the mobile formations. Maximizes their mobility and avoids draining their ORG too early.

 

[magitsu]

if that IS indeed the right amount, im probaly also using far too large armoured groups - 5 corps of 4 divivisions with ARM-2xMOT-SPART-TD, spread out over 2-3 points where i want to break through and try for an encriclement.

It seems so - 2 divs of that in each of those corps (rest inf+art/at mixes) would be more than enough. Or one div of arm each if those 5 corps are indeed in only 2 places.

 

[grumphie]

did a rerun as germany, this time just building stuff with IC so i don't build myself a gigantic force i cannot possibly sustain.

i think my main army is about finished now, with 2 panzer corps(ARM-2xMOT-SPART), and the large majority of frontline being 3INF-ART, instead relying on CAS to help blunt armoured attacks.

i also built 2 mountaineer corps and 6 divisions of paratroopers for utility purposes.

i have a fairly large airforce with plenty of INT, TAC and CAS, so i doubt air superiority is going to be much of a problem.

my navy OTOH is fairly pitiful, with only a few transport ships and subs, but i have a battlefleet in construction with 5 battleships, 10 destroyers and 10 light cruisers which should be finished aroudn the time france falls. i feel like that'l allow me to land some troops on english soil, which togetehr with paratrooper support should take out those pesky air raids form there.

i have 2 divisions a province around poland, 2 around most of sudetenland, and 3 divisions on the danish and french border in each province. those around sudetenland will either go to the western border at the low countries, reinforce the key pushes into poland and can double as port garrison before barbossa.

so far i have not been runnign into supply problems, and i feel like this can work. i would like either a bit more armor or motorised infantry divisions to exploit gaps a bit more and do some larger encirclements, but i'll have plenty of time before i invade the SU to build a few more.

im still lookign for a good format for port garrison duty though. armor is IIRC fairly worthless in port invasions, so im was thinking 2 2GAR-ART a port, possibly more on larger ports. i don't knwo what would be a good reserves for port duty though - seems a waste to keep a corps of motorised units behind, while normal infantry feels too slow. 3 divisions of LARM maybe? not too IC intensive to build while still mobile.

 

[Kovax]

The trick with ports is to guard the major ones and keep a sizable reaction force (1 Armored division and some INF) nearby to cover several minor ones and reinforce the major ones if needed. I use 2xGAR+AA in many cases (2xGAR+ART will work very well, but eats more supply), either 1 in "medium" size ports or 2 in the more important ones. It's not enough to stop an invasion cold, and the AI may land troops on either side of it, but ideally it gives your reserves time to come to the rescue. Covering every port with a sizable garrison is costly.

 

[themousemaster]

hadn't you just said you didn't want to deal with a navy? ;p

Fair note: DD and CL together aren't really optimized. Due to how the game handles things like Practicals and Research, it's best to pick 1 escort, and 1 or 2 capitals (That being either 1 capital of EITHER CV or BB/BC/CA, or cv AND BB/BC/CA, not a mix of BB, BC, and CA). May not hurt you in the end if you are just against the AI...

... that said, while a fleet of 5BB and 10DD will "hold up" ok vs the royal navy, it won't sink much of anything carrier-based. So if you are going to land, be sure to do it fast and en-masses while your SAG holds of their forces a province away ;p.




3INF-1ART is a commonly used grouping. Some people, in an effort to push the Soft Attack values over manpower usage, will go with 2INF-2ART, but that's really preference, both can work.




PORT DEFENSE: against the AI, you can just make 2 divisions of 2xGAR on each port, and the AI will rarely if ever try and invade that port due to it's programming. However, it's horribly ill-designed; against even a novice MP opponent, that setup will die horribly. Even 2GAR-1ART will still fall to a semi-dedicated landing.

If you want to learn the ins-and-outs of port defense, then just put a small defense force (4xMIL is my favorite, though if your MIL techs are bad, a "line" infantry division will do, if a bit overkill) to prevent an unopposed landing at each port, scatter 1xMIL divisions on non-port coastal provinces to trigger any lander's Attack Delay, and then keep behind that a couple infantry corps and 1 (at least) armored corps, spread out along the FRA and GER countryside, to respond to wherever the landing is taking place. In general, it's better to let them land and then kill the landers then it is to just repel the landing; otherwise, UK can just plop their MARs back on home soil, let them regenerate ORG, and try again later. a single 2xMIL will hold the fort long enough for you to vector in your capital ship force to try and sink the fleet, which is the REAL goal (fun fact: another quirk of game programming makes it near impossible for surface ships to sink any carrier newer than the stone age, even in cases where it should have a good shot at it; one of the few ways around it is to fight carriers that are "escorting" a landing fleet, as they are easier to get into range of your guns)

 

[grumphie]

as much as i have no idea what to do with a navy, i feel like taking the UK would be ratehr hard if i cannot land troops there. so im building just a few i can screw around with them without it having a gigantic imapct on the general war effort. if i'd play japan i would have been in quite a huge trouble if i make such mistakes.

i wasnt expecting any major naval battles(mainly skirmishes while my forces try and land in the UK) so carrier combat ability won't be my top priority. i'll msot liekly have local air superiority anyways.

for port defence ill get rid of the ART then. i;d ratehr use those on the front lines instead. i doubt the AI will be able to pull off anythign remotely the size and planning of D-DAY anyways, so if the GAR just slows down the taking of ports im more than happy with that.

 

[themousemaster]

I'm going to give you two heads-ups:

A) As soon as you take a single VP-province in the british isles, the USSR will DoW YOU, if you haven't done so already, to take advantage of your multi-front war. Be prepared.

B) As soon as you attempt a landing anywhere on british soil, the ENTIRE BRITISH NAVY is going to sortie to stop you. You won't be getting "skirmishes" when you try, you care going to get the kitchen sink (unless the entire RN is in the Pacific at the time or something). So your landing needs to be *fast*.




Yes, JAP is the #1 most important player to properly use a navy with in the game, but I wouldn't suggest "jumping in" with them to learn the naval aspect anymore than GER, who either can't build enough to challenge the UK, or spends a large chunk of it's production to do so instead. If you want to learn navy, either play NATCHI (once they force JAP off the mainland, they can take all the time they want to build a navy), or the USA (due to their sheer IC power, minor, or even moderate, mistakes in the build plan can be overcome)

 

[Kovax]

GER can build a "modest" navy and do surprisingly well with it, as long as they operate within range of land-based aircraft. If you venture too far out, the RN carriers will make life miserable for your fleet, unless you develop and build your own CTF and CAGs.

I've used those two old WWI "battlewagons" to tie up the RN long enough to perform a landing on the UK coast, without building a single ship other than a group of 3 transports. Once you've got an airfield and a port, the UK is pathetically easy to take out of the game: I've done it in one game as Italy and even once with Hungary with only 3 TPs for the actual invasion and a sub as a spotter (although in that instance GER joined the invasion around the time I already had London and 2/3 of the British Isles under control). Taking out the British Isles with Germany is so simple in HOI3 that I avoid it (as an obvious exploit) until after I've crippled the RN to the point where it can't even muster a ship to threaten the landing.