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Thanks! I was a little surprised too -- was getting lazy, I guess.
But mere naval superiority isn't going to help me unless I'm content with "small change". One way or another, if I want more than Formosa, I'm going to have to go in and get it. Naval superiority does help in choosing targets, though. Alas, that advantage didn't pan out in S. China. Indeed, I was aware of that technicality. I've been using fleets of 7-10 transports, and my armies, typically, are smaller in size than that (or in many cases, of the same size, maximizing transport capacity). I think there were multiple armies in Chengde (I think I also tried to pull out of Jinzhou - same situation), but I couldn't retreat out of the combat for anything. Not as one group, or as individual sets of armies, of smaller numbers of regiments. Dunno.
Oh, J. Passepartout... I'm just not GOOD at biting off only as much as I can chew!
The boats are fine, but the troops, most of them, were lost onshore without the ability to retreat. I think most of my fleets were off bringing more reinforcements. As I mentioned to The Arch Mede, I had gotten out of the habit of stationing "recovery task forces" offshore, because it didn't seem to be working (and yet then it did, at Hong Kong).
You're probably right -- China deserves a little more attention. Course, so do many of the other countries...
Give us the detail
Great to hear! Thanks, Seelmeister!
Speaking for those who skip: I am OK with the current state of affairs - I do not read the text but I still enjoy the screenshots
Quite all right, Athalcor! With occasional exceptions, my style (as you probably know) is to include just about everything of importance in the screenshots.
Excellent! Thanks.
Great to hear!
So the votes were 4:1, which I assume is representative (unless those who don't pay attention to detail didn't see the question...
). So I'll keep up with the detailed treatments of the war(s).I sometimes get concerned that I'll bore people with endless tallies of this battle and that. Each one that I mention (I don't mention all) is of at least some significance, or I'd skip past it. I was thinking I could speed it up by ignoring some of the medium-importance battles, but I shall not.
And, considering that there's this war, and then more wars with China, and... All those updates will serve to illustrate that I can be damned stubborn!
Thanks for reading! And commenting!
Sorry the update isn't ready yet. Work is out of control this week. And I got 1/3 of the update done during yesterday's lunch, and another 3rd today, so should be available tonight, once I have a little more time to complete the last of it.
Rensslaer
That's quite a ball you've had going on there with Russia and China – though you didn't get the easiest of dancing partners to end the ball with I suspect the upgrade to AHD might have benefited the Chinese more than you, tech-wise. Apart from those machine guns in the wrong hands, how are you liking AHD? And let me know if you decide to update the strategy guide (if/when you have the time)
On the level of detail, I agree with previous posters, easier to please skimmers with too much detail than the other way around.
I suspect the upgrade to AHD might have benefited the Chinese more than you, tech-wise. Apart from those machine guns in the wrong hands, how are you liking AHD? And let me know if you decide to update the strategy guide (if/when you have the time)On the level of detail, I agree with previous posters, easier to please skimmers with too much detail than the other way around.
After the supreme defeat of the campaign in southern China, Japanese strategists were forced to re-assess the best way to resume the war. The Manchurian front clearly remained a strong theatre of operation, with troops now in most of the provinces of the region, and Gen. Yasukata Okubo having great success at Mukden.
It was decided to take the forces retrieved from Hong Kong – the only survivors of the southern debacle – and the other reinforcement fleets, and land them along the coastal provinces bordering the Korean Bay. Two armies went onto the Shantung Peninsula, at Laizhou, while another army landed at ill-fated Chengde, and a fourth smaller army landed to attack the remnants of the Chinese army that killed Gen. Oyama’s army at Chengde recently. It was hoped that their victorious, but very tired, army would fall quickly.
The landing at Laizhou was prompted because it had seemed a defensible location, there were few Chinese armies in the vicinity, and, not least, because Japan had declared its intention to ask for the region as war spoils. It had not been so vulnerable when the south China operation was planned, or the whole expedition might have gone there instead. But at the time, there were too many enormous Chinese armies in the region, transiting from the south toward Manchuria. They would have merely had to shift their direction of march, and they would have fallen upon the invasion. In a way, south China was the sacrifice that enabled both, victory in Manchuria, and this invasion of Shantung.
The initiative that had been gained in Manchuria allowed Japanese armies to spread out. Gen. Goro Ichinohe engaged Gen. Zhou’s larger army at Jirim Chuulgan, but initially the Japanese attack went relatively well. A Japanese army occupied Jinzhou, and would soon control the area.
Gen. Goro Okubo, at Mukden, was capably handling a Chinese army twice his size – both armies were ragged, exhausted from combat, but the Japanese spirits were higher, and still had a technology edge. On March 4, Okubo’s army was victorious, with the Chinese losing 23,000 men for the loss of only 9,000 Japanese (+3.7 warscore).
On the Shantung Peninsula, Gen. Gentaro Nire, Japan’s most brilliant general (+5 attack, +3 defense), led a sizeable force south to head off a Chinese army approaching from the south at Yizhou. This move protected the occupation forces, which had spread out in an attempt to secure the whole peninsula. Chinese Gen. Sonin Shangzhi wasn’t particularly skilled, but he experienced some incredible luck, and was able to surprise Nire’s army in the passes, such that during the first week of combat they suffered terribly. During the second week, Nire turned things around, and Chinese casualties approached 900 per day, but it was too late to make the situation right. Nire retreated on the 11th, just 2 weeks after initiating the attack, and withdrew further into the peninsula. Losses on both sides were several thousand.
After this victory, on top of the astounding collapse of the south China campaign, the Chinese government issued an insulting proposal that Japan keep the island of Formosa, which China had absolutely no chance of recovering, and be satisfied with that. The envoy was rudely ejected from the palace where he had presented the script.
The great powers of the world were still coming to terms with Japan’s newfound celebrity. But Japanese diplomats had been busy in the halls of foreign powers, attempting to use its newfound influence to acquire new markets and allies. Johore was an obvious target. And the Netherlands – the European colonial power whose strength, as with Spain, had waned in recent decades – was a tempting target also, given its large Asian population and colonial holdings. Backchannel dealings were also made with Chinese authorities, though the Chinese court was a relative den of thieves, full of officials from the world’s governments, all meaning to make from China what they wished.
((OOC: There is NO WAY I should have been able to do this – if I’m at war with them, influence is supposed to be blocked off. I figure since I became a great power after the war had already started, some error check must have missed the violation. And I didn’t realize until later that I wasn’t supposed to be able to influence a country during war either.))
The hopeful revenge attack upon the army that had defeated Gen. Oyama failed. Those troops withdrew to Chenge on the 11th of March, but fortunately Chengde was a more hospitable place by then, despite the earlier Chinese victory. Gen. Yasukata Okubo was waging a struggle with Gen. Oboi there, at Chengde, and the impressive casualty totals were reminiscent of earlier wars, with only 1 Japanese falling for every 12 Chinese (1,500 per day at times).
Meanwhile, Gen. Goro Okubo was busy putting down another Chinese attempt to retake Port Arthur, and he was also seeing incredible disparities in casualty rates, just like old times. The remnants of 8 separate Chinese armies were there, and on March 30, Gen. Zhou surrendered the 29,000 survivors of his campaign (OOC: total dead or captured from this battle of Port Arthur was 37,000, but you know those 8 armies probably numbered 160,000 at one point – now they’re all gone, permanently lost to the Chinese – makes up a little for my loss in S. China.)
Despite recent foibles, not least south China, it was clear to those on both sides that Japan was still winning the war. The Shantung Peninsula had stabilized, despite a thinness of troops, and lack of preparedness to face a serious challenge. Enemy armies steered clear, at least temporarily. The Japanese armies recovered and prepared. Chinese envoys had, of late, been conciliatory, and signaling a willingness to deal. Japan, however, now wanted revenge more than ever. This would not be the end they would accept.
Gen. Okubo withdrew from combat at Chengde on the 25th of April, having inflicted 26,000 casualties upon the attacking enemy, but Gen. Tokugawa (+3 attack) was prepared with fresh troops to march in and renew the offensive there. It was a strategic reordering of objectives – it was felt Japan would be better off on the offensive, choosing the field of battle, rather than attempting to hold defensive lines against the enormous enemy army. Tokugawa struck in the first week of May.
Laizhou was declared secured, and free of enemy troops, on the 25th of April, and an army immediately advanced to seize the advantage at Qingzhou, beginning an occupation. But the Chinese took advantage of the vacuum this left, and instead of attacking at Qingzhou, they slipped into Laizhou, and then began to threaten Qingdao. While a certain calculated risk had been accepted, when Japan advanced to Qingzhou, it was anticipated that the Chinese would try to retake Laizhou, rather than marching immediately upon Qingdao.
The unexpected Chinese move threw operations into disarray. Qingdao was almost secured, but this would be prevented if the Chinese attacked, and the Japanese army there wasn’t strong enough to hold for long. It was a race for Qingdao. Fortunately for the Japanese, the province was declared secure before the Chinese could arrive, and at that point the Chinese advance was called off. A sigh of relief was breathed.
On May 20 the ground at Jirim Chuulgan was yielded to the Japanese. The battle was not so lopsided as others, but with 37,000 Chinese soldiers dead, the loss ratio had been 2.5:1 – a clear Japanese victory in an interior Manchurian/Mongolian) province. This came quick on the heels of securing Aigun and Qiqihar, immediately to the north.
The Chinese, sensing an opportunity to repeat their complete victory in south China, and redeem themselves in this war, did decide to march upon Qingdao once enough troops were present to mount a serious attack, during the middle of May. Initially, Gen. Chang believed he had a good position from which to turn the Japanese position, but as May wore into June, Gen. Okubo improved his situation defensively, and it seemed as if he might hold out. Losses were heavy on the Chinese side, but Okubo’s army weakened faster – he ordered a retreat onto ships in the harbor on June 7, having again stunned the Chinese with tremendous losses.
Gen. Nire, for his part, mounted a counteroffensive against the Chinese army that had been left to occupy Laizhou, hoping to dislodge them. It would be a supreme contest, and Nire didn’t get so much of an advantage as he’d hoped for in the early days of the campaign. Gen. Oboi’s forces had set up defenses, which the Japanese were finding it hard to overcome. Meanwhile, reinforcements were landed at the docks at Qingdao before the Chinese could arrive, and another battle began there. A small army at Weihaiwei completed their task of securing that province, and marched to help Gen. Nire at Laizhou. Which way would this campaign turn?
By July, Gen. Nire was achieving his more typical casualty rates against the Chinese. The bad luck – or was it the machine guns? – of south China seemed forgotten by the arbiters of fate. Such success was not being had by the new defenders of Qingdao, but neither were they in dire straits – the Chinese would eventually tire, and need to withdraw, and now they had Gen. Nire perched upon their avenue of escape. More reinforcements arrived by sea in Qingdao in mid-July, and then the Chinese really began to suffer at the hands of Gen. Okubo. That battle concluded on 21 July, with the surrender of the entire Chinese command, whose survivors plus dead totaled 15,000 (+2.2 Warscore).
(((OOC: No easy way to work all this into the narrative – I achieved Army Risk Management, which gave me another +100 in Military Tactics, which is a sort of a force multiplier in combat. I followed up by beginning research on Point Defense, which improves my defensive values, dig-in values, and fortress levels. That would be achieved by May of 1895, about 11 months away).
By the end of July, Gen. Nire had been victorious at Laizhou, killing 30,000 of the enemy (+4.8 Warscore). Qingzhou, to the north, had been secured, meanwhile, and Gen. Goro Okubo then took command of that force and led them south to punish the Chinese army at Yizhou (where the Chinese survivors from Laizhou would soon march through).
The battle at Chengde had again been lost, as was inevitable, considering the small size of the army Gen. Yasukata Okubo had led there. Eleven thousand Japanese had died, and 29,000 Chinese, which seemed a relatively acceptable trade, considering.
At this point, in August, 1894, the Japanese marshals believed the war was going well enough that it was time to ask for more from the nervous Chinese officials. The Aigun region of Manchuria (green in the map above) was added as a third claim, in addition to Formosa and the Shantung Peninsula (Lizhou state).
And, back home, Japan’s first railroads were going into service in the region around the capital of Edo.
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I would have been happy to walk away at this point, but seeing as how you keep winning more than you loose, it's understandable. Just don't bite off too much. I remember a certain Prussian king almost loosing his kingdom because he underestimated the French...
I still remember the V2 beta AAR where the result of a Sino-Japanese conflict was the annexation of entire China . Not possible anymore, though.
. Not possible anymore, though.
Very nice, I always love a good Japan stomping over China, but somehow it's very easy for the massive manpower of China to cut you off once you get out of the Korean peninsula were it is far easier to hold a line.
Manchuria is kind of strategically critical for you to hold so I think that this is a good choice.
Manchuria in Japanese hands(provided you remember to develop yourself up to 70-80 research points a day and get ahead of the game technologically) can also stabilize the world economy by creating a surplus of coal and iron on the WM.
Something reeks out like half-baked revisionism in here, but I can't quite put the finger on what exactly
Seriously, and in spite of being a hard proponent on hurting China, adding a 26 warscore goal ... hum, gutsy
Given that the Chinese were only willing to part of a 15 warscore goal at 37 , it means that you still have quite a butcher work in front of you, as the Chinese are obviously stiill with enough meat to throw at your bullets and bayonets. And, let's just hope that the war does not drag enough time for someone with revisionist claims on Japan comes out to get you while you are neck deep in China ...
With an additionnal 26 points wargoal ... yu'll need to hit about 60% WS before the chinese learn their lesson! but i'm confident you can achieve it.
Black Jack repeat it
wheel turning round and round
Triple or nothing
(if this makes no sense I apologize, I tried to fit Steely Dan, Japan, and gambling into one haiku)
wheel turning round and round
Triple or nothing
(if this makes no sense I apologize, I tried to fit Steely Dan, Japan, and gambling into one haiku)
That's quite a ball you've had going on there with Russia and China – though you didn't get the easiest of dancing partners to end the ball with
On the level of detail, I agree with previous posters, easier to please skimmers with too much detail than the other way around.
I haven't quite decided which of the two -- China or Russia -- is actually the hardest for me to beat. China has those mass armies that keep coming, yes, but I can't kill gobs and gobs of Russians every day, and so in many ways they're more resilient, not to mention they've got about 30-40 points of Organization on the Japanese units, which means I have to practically destroy two Japanese armies to beat each Russian one.
I haven't actually switched to AHD yet in gameplay updates.... Only in realtime playing (starting in 1908). I'm tentatively liking it. Haven't had much time to play lately. As for an update for the Strategy Guide, we'd have to figure out some way for me to get paid, and I'd have to have time. I could ask Paradox though. It might be something they'd consider just after HOD's release.
Thanks!
I tend to do this... For better or worse.
I know... moderation in all things.
But I'm not good at following those directions when I get my stubborn on! I still remember the V2 beta AAR where the result of a Sino-Japanese conflict was the annexation of entire China
Yeah, wow. Can't even imagine!
Welcome, Levithan123! Thanks! Yes, I must watch my back.
I quite agree. Thanks!
Welcome, Pabbicus! Yes, that might be a serious goal. It's one that Japan isn't quite aware of yet (since I'm role-playing), but it will become apparent as it starts to build steel mills, etc.
Something reeks out like half-baked revisionism in here, but I can't quite put the finger on what exactly
Seriously, and in spite of being a hard proponent on hurting China, adding a 26 warscore goal ... hum, gutsy
Thanks! I'll have to stare them down, and put them into the mud a little.Thanks! As for Warscore, keep in mind that as I conquer, the value of the territory becomes less to China (because I now hold it), and so the Warscore cost goes down, and my actual Warscore goes up, plus as the Chinese lose troops, their confidence of continuing the war goes down. So I'm expecting at some point I'll hit a tipping point.
lol I was wondering.
A little strapped for time, lately, but I'm hoping to have an update up this weekend sometime. Tomorrow I might be seeing Star Trek twice (once with the crew from work, once with my son).
Thanks for your comments! More exciting stuff coming right up!
Rensslaer
What a fun update. The casualties being inflicted on the Chinese army are astounding, yet they keep coming. It must be nice to be a casket maker in China right around this time.
Thanks! Yeah, it's hard to believe. But you use the resources you have, right? And theirs are primarily flesh and blood.
Sorry, I was really hoping to have an update today, but it probably won't be until tomorrow -- either lunch or the evening.
Rensslaer
just read through this aar, liked it a lot! good balance of story and gameplay, and i like the concept as well.
Thanks! Welcome, Files! I just started reading through your introduction on your AAR yesterday -- it looks like an interesting and intriguing setup. Looking forward to seeing what you do with it!
And now....
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In the middle of August, 1894, Gen. Yasukata Okubo was keeping the Chinese occupied in Jinzhou, achieving 6:1 kill ratios with 3,000 Chinese soldiers dying during some days of campaigning. Gen. Goro Okubo had moved down to Yizhou, and around this same time won the battle there, killing 15,000 Chinese for the loss of only 2,000 Japanese.
The Chinese had been willing to consider Formosa and Laizhou for peace – humiliating concessions, just by themselves. But their pride would not allow them to consider Aigun also. Not yet.
Increasing portions of Manchuria and the Shantung Peninsula were falling to Japanese occupation. These were of key importance for Japan to convince China of such a need for appeasement.
And, in additional help toward that goal, in the middle of August, the United Kingdom began another invasion of the interior of China, meaning to expand her control in the south.
At the beginning of September, Gen. Gentaro Nire pushed out of the Shantung Peninsula, attacking into Tianjin, where Gen. Zhao was weak, but made a stand. This had the appearance of another “good” battle for Japan.
Then, Russia and Sweden sensed that China had been made vulnerable enough to invade also, from the north. They were aiming for Mongolia. It was somewhat pride-swelling for Japan to realize that her long war had such far-reaching consequences for China, even if conquests of these territories were not necessarily in Japan’s interests.
It was realized that these additional wars would further weaken China, not just in this war, but, if conquest was achieved, would also permanently knock her down. That, in itself, might well benefit Japan. Such remained to be seen. As China increasingly embittered Japan with her wars, Japan’s focus on foreign intrusion into Asia was being re-evaluated somewhat.
Reinforcements arrived in mid-September for Nire at Tianjin, increasing his coverage of the battlefield, and allowing him to carry the war to Gen. Zhao more effectively. At one point at the end of the month, nearly 4,000 Chinese were falling to Japanese guns per day – one Japanese soldier falling for every 10 Chinese.
Mukden was declared a secure zone on October 9, and another envoy was sent to China to emphasize once more the ever-increasing advantage Japan had in this war. All shame from the days of south China was gone – Japan was the master once more. She had found her balance again. The Chinese, however, refused to sufficiently recognize the changing ground. China had always been stubborn. Japan continued to eat holes in the Chinese lines at Tianjin, and at Jinzhou. Troops were sent south to Xuzhou to expand the Chinese occupation from the Shantung Peninsula.
By October, Gen. Yasukata Okubo at Jinzhou was achieving nearly 2,000 killed per day on the other side of his lines. But the number of troops the Chinese had against him was simply epic – 274,000 men against 55,000 Japanese.
On November 7, Gen. Nire’s campaign at Tianjin ended, with the total loss of 72,000 Chinese, against only 17,000 of his own (+12.8 Warscore, but of course these battles don’t actually increase my Warscore, since it’s capped at 25 from battles). Battles like that could eliminate the Chinese advantage in men, such as seen at Jinzhou. If only Japan could keep battles like these up for 100 days at a time, the Chinese would fall… But could they?
At Qingzhou, in the middle of Novermber, 1894, Gen. Yoshida Oyama (steadfast hero of lost Chengde) battled to prove that Japan could, in fact, keep up that pace of casualties. The concerns of the Chinese having machine guns were gone. Japan was more than a match, again, and at Qingzhou, Oyama’s troops were killing 2,000 Chinese for the loss of only a handful of their own. By the end of November, he had pushed the Chinese out of the province, with 23,000 casualties, against only 1,000 Japanese.
Yizhou was declared secure on November 20. Japan was moving inexorably toward a crushing defeat of China. Wuding followed the next day.
After Tianjin, Gen. Nire had advanced to Taian, deeper into China. Meeting an already-beaten fragment of a Chinese army, he began dismantling it a thousand men at a time, which allowed the army to last only a week. The enemy retreated with only 2,000 of their number, leaving 7,000 behind on the field of battle. Gen. Ichinohe began pushing inland also. He met Gen. Oboi at Jinan, whose army had also been trying to recover from an earlier loss.
Another army was being landed at Shanghai, to open another front. There appeared to be no Chinese armies left to contest that region. More troops hit a small Chinese force at Huaian. Gen. Nire, meanwhile, was again pressing inland, in pursuit of the flagging Chinese. At Caozhou, he met 9,000 troops under the command of Gen. Chang, and again the killing began. In mid-December, Gen. Okada had advanced to the gates of the Imperial capital itself, at Beijing. The only sour note in this period of the war was his disappointing initial showing.
Gen. Okubo was forced to withdraw from Jinzhou to preserve the core of his exhausted forces, but, again, this was judged an unquestioned tactical victory, considering that 144,000 Chinese had been ground under in the course of the long battle. Okubo lost 27,000. It was a marginal strategic victory for the Chinese, only because by the end of the year, they had reoccupied the province.
The war ground on, the Japanese seemingly having broken the means and the spirit of the Chinese army to resist. The battle at Beijing was won. Tianjin fell.
The United States declared an “interest” in preserving Chinese territory against the Russian incursion into Mongolia, but made no mention of China’s war with Japan, which was of much greater magnitude. Was the USA cowed by Japan’s strength? In any case, it was far too late to save China.
The battle at Jinan was resolved, with 10:1 casualties inflicted upon the Chinese. The battle at Huaian ended with even more lopsided results. The battle at Caozhou was resolved with 11:1 odds in battle.
By the first week of January, 1895, the embarrassing truth was realized by the Chinese Emperor. All three regions demanded by Japan were finally yielded by China, which was now deeply involved in warfare on two other fronts, besides the one just closing.
The end of the war was celebrated by the declaration of four new states – HaIshenwai, Sariwon, Laizhou, and even Formosa, which even upon the very end of hostilities showed a willingness to separate itself permanently from China, and become loyal to Japan.
It was hoped that the few years before the end of the 19th Century would be one of peace and economic expansion for Japan – a period to recover from war, and consolidate its grasp on world status.