Bah. The answer to losses is simply more troops. This is why China needs to join the Greater Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere to provide the glorious Japanese army with cannon fodder!
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As September, 1893, wore on, the situation in southern China became complicated. The logic was that if small Chinese armies began to press in on the enclave, it was important that small Japanese armies move forward to prevent them from harassing the landing forces, which were struggling to effect military control over the coastal provinces.
The problem with this thinking was that these smaller Japanese armies lacked both, heft, and talented leadership. A combination of attrition and combat had worn Gen. Yasuyoshi Katsura’s army down, before he had really been able to accomplish very much. The Battle of Ganzhou (4,000 vs. 5,000 = +0.6 Warscore for Japan) had been an indeterminate result, and now Katsura would face more combat in the near future without really being ready for it.
But overall, Japan still felt very confident in this war. She had lately held off both, the legendary power of China (not “civilized” but, make no mistake, very powerful) and a great power of Europe, Russia. And now she was fighting a war against China on two fronts, now that the second front of Russia had closed.
Almost any observer, from any country of the globe, would by 1893 consider Japan one of the great powers of the world (officially achieved the status, after many months or years of teasing at the status!).
Japan was already attempting to draw around her a European-style sphere of influence, with agents working in Johore, the Netherlands (which was the only European power that had a significant percentage of its population living in Asia – the East Indies), and even China.
The Emperor believed it was time to demand more from China, considering how the war was going, and what expectations of a war with Japan would be, in those days. In addition to Formosa, Japan’s envoys began establishing a claim on the Laizhou region – the Shandong Peninsula.
Gen. Okubo was able to defeat the enemy at Jirim Chuulgan, an inner Manchurian province which had held off Gen. Nire at his last attack.
During the last week of October, both Mukden and Jilin proved ultimately untenable, but, as usual, the cost had been much higher against the Chinese. Gen. Saigo destroyed a tentative Chinese probe toward the Manchurian coast, at HaIshenwai.
At the end of October, and the first weeks of November, a succession of small battles provided some additional impetus toward victory, in the north. Gen. Okada attacked at Mukden, again, with 20,000 Japanese soldiers against 84,000 Chinese.
But also, in southern China, battles were engaged at Ganzhou, again, and at Tingzhou. The Chinese were massing troops, already, and the small Japanese armies there were unable to inflict large amounts of casualties, as had been done in the north. The first inklings of concern began to appear in the minds of the high command.
Reinforcements were landed at Quanzhou, south of Tingzhou, in an attempt to lend some support to the beleaguered Gen. Iwao Kido there. But new armies were reinforcing the Chinese at an even faster rate, and by the 3rd week of combat, on November 19, Kido’s entire force was wiped out. The general, himself, escaped with his very life.
The irony was the strategy of opening a southern front, where fewer Chinese troops were, had had the opposite effect from what had been expected. Instead of victories in the south, because there were fewer Chinese armies than in the north, the war in the south of China instead drew thousands of Chinese troops from the north, where Japan’s battle was starting to really gain momentum.
The Japanese were dismayed to find that the Chinese were now armed with machine guns – in substantial quantities, not just the captured models they had acquired in battle with Japan or other major powers. ((OOC: I suspect that China must have made a major technological advance during this time, in the field of Army Techs, because my battles suddenly became ALOT tougher, and I stopped getting the major casualty disparities I’d grown used to – this DID NOT help in southern China!!!))
The battle at Ganzhou was lost in the final week of November, with approximately equal casualties on each side. The small Japanese force retreated to Waizhou. But, by the end of the month Chinese armies had penetrated even to there, where Japanese troops had been close to having the province secured. Every accomplishment in the south, it seemed, was being dismantled. It was small comfort, on December 2, when Zhangzhou was finally secured, as there was no longer any hope of maintaining it.
A relief force which had been sent to try to relieve Kido, at Tingzhou, was surprised instead by advancing Chinese forces, who had recently wiped out Kido’s army. These troops lost their battle on the 3rd, having lost another 6,000 troops, without adversely impacting the Chinese quite so much.
All across the front, in southern China, smaller numbers of Japanese troops were faced with larger Chinese armies – a situation not at all unusual, in any of the Sino-Japanese wars. The difference, here, was that only at Chaozhou did the Japanese seemingly have such a lopsided advantage over the Chinese, as they had been accustomed. Elsewhere, their technology and training was failing to hold the enemy. A devastating disaster was brewing.
By the middle of December, the once indeterminate struggle at Waizhou had turned into yet another defeat for Japan. Once victorious there, the Chinese advanced to what had once been a sheltered corner of the war, at Hong Kong. There were not many Japanese defenders, and the Chinese arrived even before the retreating Japanese had arrived, not that those torn and weary troops would be able to add much to the defense.
An attempt to end the war, before the tide turned more seriously in southern China, was rejected by the Chinese. They would not yield both, Formosa and Laizhou.
On the 22nd of December, Japan was humiliated by losing another 20,000 man army at Quanzhou – they had not inflicted significant casualties against the 60,000 Chinese they faced, and the army was routed and run down as it fled for the safety of Zhangzhou, where another desperate battle was already underway.
At Chaozhou, Gen. Katsura’s army had put up a good fight, but only 3 of his regiments remained combat effective, and they wouldn’t last until the end of the year unless reinforcements arrived. Such a relief force was underway, but would it make it in time?
Also at the end of December, the struggle at Hong Kong was lost. Two thousand Japanese soldiers fell, but fortunately another 6,000 were able to successfully evacuate to ships lying offshore.
The only bright point in the war during this period, for Japan, came from the north. Eight thousand fresh Chinese hit Gen. Kiyotaka Matsudaira’s tired army, which had retreated there from Mukden. It seemed as if it might be touch and go when battle was first joined, but Matsudaira’s army demonstrated such dominant use of defensive terrain and entrenchments that 6,000 of the enemy fell, for the loss of only 300 Japanese.
But by then, there was no consolation for the unfolding collapse of the south China perimeter. Zhangzhou had lasted only until the 2nd of January. Gen. Goro Ichinohe’s 6,000 man command was forced to surrender. Only a small garrison force within the province’s capital held out for another few weeks, holding the territory they had taken.
An attempt to relieve Gen. Katsura’s force, at Chaozhou, arrived, tragically, the day after his surrender on the 29th – 11,000 Japanese soldiers had walked into captivity without the knowledge that they were about to be rescued. The relief force of 12,000 was then embroiled in a losing fight. They were able to engage in a fighting withdrawal along their path of advance. But with Waizao now under enemy control, there was no place to withdraw to, and on the 14th the last major Japanese army in southern China surrendered.
The garrison at Zhangzhou lasted only another couple of weeks, then was wiped out. The venture against the south China coast, to which so many troops had been committed, and so many hopes had been pinned, had been utterly defeated – it had all been for naught.
Astonished and disbelieving field marshals in Japan were forced to wonder. Sixty thousand Japanese soldiers had been lost in the debacle of south China. What did this bode for the rest of the war?
Wow, that was a huge turn of the war tide - though I believe you will emerge victorious in the north, concentrating your troops in one district..
Ouch, I suppose it was inevitable that one day China would grab some of those military techs. Japan still have a number of advantages - you are clearly superior man for man, just not to the extent that you were at the start of the war. Secondly, those troops in Manchuria must have very good experience levels - until the southern China campaign the Chinese soldiers were not lasting long enough to accrue any.
A stronger China means it is more important than ever that you gain something substantial from this war – a decent population boost would deliver tax and manpower benefits that will aid in the inevitable next war. It is also important that any gains are made in easily defensible regions – Formosa has obvious advantages here but any land bordering your current holdings could also be fortified quickly.
What Japan really needs, and I'm sure the Emperor would vehemently disagree with me, is a western devil to get involved in China now and maintain that second front!
Great update, the war has really opened up and I’m looking forward to seeing how you bring it to a close.
A stronger China means it is more important than ever that you gain something substantial from this war – a decent population boost would deliver tax and manpower benefits that will aid in the inevitable next war. It is also important that any gains are made in easily defensible regions – Formosa has obvious advantages here but any land bordering your current holdings could also be fortified quickly.
What Japan really needs, and I'm sure the Emperor would vehemently disagree with me, is a western devil to get involved in China now and maintain that second front!
Great update, the war has really opened up and I’m looking forward to seeing how you bring it to a close.
RL Sun Tzu won a war against a massively larger army by playing flying circus (yeah, about 1000 years ago!!). You must have naval superiority. Maybe you could upset their balance that way?
I've had much the same experience with China. (Though I did keep a large enough transport fleet on station to run away to) There were uncounted hordes hiding in the far recesses of China, and opening a second front just gave them something to do.
Congrats on making great power status. Now Japan is safe from European spheres for good
But on the other hand the war with China is taking a turn for the worst, but you have already inflicted significant casualties on them. Maybe that might be enough?
But on the other hand the war with China is taking a turn for the worst, but you have already inflicted significant casualties on them. Maybe that might be enough?
Wow. How the winds of war can shift. It was only a matter of time before China gained some tech, at least enough to bolster their numerical superiority. It's only too bad it didn't happen after you gained a reasonable peace. Congrats on making GP, too. Speaking of that, are the European powers making any more inroads in your neck of the woods?
I'm with misterbean on this: you should go flying circus on China and remove the troops out of the south , most preferably to the areas you wish to occupy post war ( it reduces the AI reluctance to have the provinces you demand, right ? Not sure about that .... ). Shandong would be easy to take , defend and would benefit of the possibility of getting armies from the north to help ( especially with the stream of successes you are having there ) and Formosa is isolated ...
Anyway, even for China, it would be weird to not have machine guns in the verge of the XX century. It is bad to see that in mid war, but it was expectable :/ You just have to get nerve gas to offset it
Anyway, even for China, it would be weird to not have machine guns in the verge of the XX century. It is bad to see that in mid war, but it was expectable :/ You just have to get nerve gas to offset it
I'm not saying the math makes sense... Just that those are the figures I found. Something is suspect, I think. This is one reason why I decided to upgrade to AHD as of 1908.
More Chinese blood rivers ... nothing new :/
The interesting bit is that, since the start of the Russian war, you are floating in the verge of being a great power. That means a assured GP spot when you finally finish this war with a win ( as I don't see much of a way of you losing this war at this point, since the chinese casualties at this are too big even for the Chinese
And, as we now see, it actually happened before the war even ended!
The second link is a background to an anime I know (not that I have seen it) and there is the Holy Britannian Empire (and V2 often reminds me of this entity
Interesting. Not familiar with it. My "anime supplier" has a few "modern/nearfuture military" anime sets, but not a whole lot. Most of his military ones are fantastic, or sci-fi, like Last Exile or Escaflowne.
Great!
I'm not sure quite what it is. This desktop is NOT optimized for games -- my laptop is actually smoother for V2 -- so it might just be a hardware limitation.Yes, well...
That may not be a textbook answer, but it's sure fine practicality, provided your enemy/economy cooperate! Great!
Welcome, GrenadierSchube! Glad I've got you excited! Thanks for saying hello!Yeah, tell me about it! lol Thanks for your confidence. I think you'll like how it proceeds from here.
Thanks! I agree with you about the experience -- those northern armies have been fighting the Chinese AND Russians, and are pretty amazing now. The southern ones not so much. And I agree about needing something substantial for this war. Grr!
Yeah... That southern China expedition WAS an attempt at jumping around and using naval superiority. I just misjudged where the most logical and defensible territory was!
I'm returning to basics in the next update, duly chastized. I've been puzzled with the transports. There have been battles where I KNOW I had enough transports to receive the retreating armies, and they still got eliminated. I guess because of that experience I'd stopped making sure to have transports offshore, figuring there had been some game tweak that took away that handy ability to retreat to ships. But Hong Kong was an obvious example where it's still working, so I'm not sure what happened with Chengde (I was definitely trying to save my army by sea, but it wouldn't let me).
"...just gave them something to do..." Heh!
Yup!Thanks! There is an exciting conclusion to the war coming up soon...
Yes! Thanks! They've slowed down, but you'll soon see another example or two of European meddling.
I'm with misterbean on this: you should go flying circus on China and remove the troops out of the south , most preferably to the areas you wish to occupy post war ( it reduces the AI reluctance to have the provinces you demand, right ? Not sure about that .... ). Shandong would be easy to take , defend and would benefit of the possibility of getting armies from the north to help ( especially with the stream of successes you are having there ) and Formosa is isolated ...
Anyway, even for China, it would be weird to not have machine guns in the verge of the XX century. It is bad to see that in mid war, but it was expectable :/ You just have to get nerve gas to offset it
Ahh, your thoughts are tracking with mine...
On the subject of Poison Gas (for all ears!)... You know I've been roleplaying, so I've intentionally not gone "gangbusters" toward gas techs -- I've known they were there, but as in real life, it was going to take someone else using gas to make me wake up and start concentrating on it.
Ooh! Very nice - I like that one!
Another update coming soon! I've got a hodgepodge of potential screenshots, and I've tracked them all up to the end of the war. I just need to figure out how many screenshots I can use to avoid dragging this out unnecessarily. Plus, I like to start and/or end my updates with a major event, so I want to apportion the screenshots appropriately so I can end on one of those notes. Might take more than a day, but I'll at least give it a go tomorrow and/or tonight.
Thanks again for your readership! Your loyalty is encouraging and humbling. Thank you!
Rensslaer
Excellent update Rensslaer! I am surprised you would get such a turning tide on you though but it was understandable. That the Chinese now both have machine guns and numbers on their side doesn't help the war effort but you can still win as long as you maintain naval superiority as well as bring more troops to a concentrated front or two, preferably another from a Western power but you don't have to yet.
Were your transports all in the same fleet or split up? If you have an army of 6 and 15 transports split into 3 fleets of 5, the army won't load until you split it manually.
China may have seemed easy to beat, but even without machine guns it seems good not to bite off more than you can chew. Not that I doubt Japan's eventual success, but modesty in war goals may be called for, merely from the point of view of being humble.
Question for my readers.... Please be honest!
Are you finding the Chinese war tedious, and should I speed it up a bit, without so much attention to individual battles, or are you enjoying the detail?
I'm just wondering, because the war is not over, and it may be another 3 updates before it concludes (in other words, I'm not packing up and going home...). I could shorten stuff, though, so it's only 2 updates, if I reduce detail.
Thanks!
Rensslaer
Are you finding the Chinese war tedious, and should I speed it up a bit, without so much attention to individual battles, or are you enjoying the detail?
I'm just wondering, because the war is not over, and it may be another 3 updates before it concludes (in other words, I'm not packing up and going home...
). I could shorten stuff, though, so it's only 2 updates, if I reduce detail.Thanks!
Rensslaer
Question for my readers.... Please be honest!
Are you finding the Chinese war tedious, and should I speed it up a bit, without so much attention to individual battles, or are you enjoying the detail?
I'm just wondering, because the war is not over, and it may be another 3 updates before it concludes (in other words, I'm not packing up and going home...
Thanks!
Rensslaer
considering the centuries-old animosity between Japan and China, I think that it deserves to be a bit detailed. It's like war between Russia and Prussia/Germany. You wouldn't want to skim over it, would you (as a reader, that is)?
Question for my readers.... Please be honest!
Are you finding the Chinese war tedious, and should I speed it up a bit, without so much attention to individual battles, or are you enjoying the detail?
I'm just wondering, because the war is not over, and it may be another 3 updates before it concludes (in other words, I'm not packing up and going home...
Thanks!
Rensslaer
Give us the detail
I'd personally prefer the in depth coverage, and I suppose those who don't can always skip to the last update :laugh:
Give us the detail
Speaking for those who skip: I am OK with the current state of affairs - I do not read the text but I still enjoy the screenshots