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Ricardo Rolo

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[Irate Japanese conservative]No, no and no!!!! We can't let the Chinese get away of this unpunished again! More, it is them that are asking for peace , so they should be even worse than us. And, whatever happens, we have got the Maxim gun and they have not ![/Irate Japanese conservative]

( sorry, couldn't resist to use the Maxim quote :p )

Seriously, I believe you have to continue the war up to the stated goal or getting the Vladivostok area. Besides all that was already said about bleeding the Chinese (and your own troops ) for no discernible gain of yours ( and most likely for the gain of someone else wanting a dent of China, something that the Japanese government in your narrative is quite worried with ), you already set the war goal, making a white peace a almost defeat for the Japanese ( especially with the war score you already racked up ). And , game wise, you surely know that the AI only starts talking of white peace when it is being soundly beaten ( as in all the Paradox games *sigh* ) ...
 

Rensslaer

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Good show! Machine Guns look to be arriving soon; if they synch with the arrival of the fresh reserves to the front then you should be golden. You seemed to have held the line in Korea and your forays in Manchukuo aren't fairing too badly. I can't wait to see what the next update holds!

Thanks! The next update should be.... exciting! :D You'll see! ;)

This is a lovely aar, I was slightly disappointed that you could not stay isolated longer though.

A slightly off topic question, do the Japanese map models always stay as samurai? I was hoping they would change when you become a modern, civilized country.

Welcome, Neoman! I was kind of disappointed I didn't remain isolated for longer, also. I hadn't actually anticipated I would be sphered so early, and then I figured the proper Japanese reaction would be to rebel against being drawn out, but then... Once you're fighting with a great power, it more or less draws you out of isolation permanently! :D

I don't know what's up with the Japanese samurai! I think -- am pretty sure this is it -- there's a particular tech, or average tech that the system uses to determine which avatar to use for the troops. Once you cross that threshold, your soldiers look different. I don't know what the Chinese might have passed already that I haven't, unless it's a Commerce tech, as I'm really behind on those. But why would it be? It's also possible that the Chinese have a different set of avatars with different triggers, and maybe Japan just doesn't have an intermediate one. Dunno. I'm sure I'll start getting different avatars soon!

Another excellent update. Japan has put a firm marker down - the Chinese will not take Korea cheaply, and without massive modernisation of their own. However, the massive cost of the two wars against China demand that the Japanese gain more than the status quo from the peace. Can the Emperor really be considering the prestige loss from not achieving Japan's territorial demands?

Thanks! Actually, it's partly my goal to make sure China NEVER modernizes -- that would complicate my situation greatly. I figure if I knock them down every few years they won't be able to concentrate on such things.

And, no... :D The Emperor was not seriously considering taking the offer -- I just wanted to see what people would say!

I agree. A wargoal has been set and I don't think it would be a good idea to abandon it.

Thanks! You know, as I was looking over screenshots in preparation for the next update I started to wonder if I really set that as a wargoal when I said, or if I set it after that white peace offer was rejected (like maybe I was just looking to see what the costs of adding the wargoal would be). In either case, it's irrelevant -- I set the wargoal soon after, for sure.

Its a tactic to fool the Chinese. Maxim guns disguised as swords.

Indeed! :) Thanks for reading!

The emperor would be a fool to accept such a peace treaty! The chinese are losing armies faster than they can replace them and they wand the easy way out!
Ocupy their capital if you must , but don't give up your wargoals!

Oh, I quite agree! :) I hate white peaces anyway -- by the time I ever see them offered, I've already lost enough troops and suffered enough economic disruption that I don't feel like letting the war go without some territory gained. That last war with China was an exception -- I knew I needed out or else I might hamper my development for decades to come!

Machine guns sure saved your proverbial bacon. Great update!

Indeed they did! :D Hey, speaking of... You've played V2 more than I have in recent years, that's for sure (with all your AARs!). I can't for the life of me find the tech that gives poison gas or gasmask abilities... Did they take that out of the tech tree, or am I just missing it? I remember that was a HUGE consideration with I Am Siam. Thanks!

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Misterbean!! Welcome! Great to see you in another AAR, and in a different forum, even!

Your Machine Guns will turn the Chinese cannon folder into meat :)

Thanks! I'm glad it's at least keeping the Chinese out of Korea.... for now!

I've been seeing a number of AARs out there with the New Countries' Mod -- I like it!

The people of the Manchurian coast must be saved from Chinese backwardness

Thanks! :) I hope it shall be accomplished!

[Irate Japanese conservative]No, no and no!!!! We can't let the Chinese get away of this unpunished again! More, it is them that are asking for peace , so they should be even worse than us. And, whatever happens, we have got the Maxim gun and they have not ![/Irate Japanese conservative]

( sorry, couldn't resist to use the Maxim quote :p )

Seriously, I believe you have to continue the war up to the stated goal or getting the Vladivostok area. Besides all that was already said about bleeding the Chinese (and your own troops ) for no discernible gain of yours ( and most likely for the gain of someone else wanting a dent of China, something that the Japanese government in your narrative is quite worried with ), you already set the war goal, making a white peace a almost defeat for the Japanese ( especially with the war score you already racked up ). And , game wise, you surely know that the AI only starts talking of white peace when it is being soundly beaten ( as in all the Paradox games *sigh* ) ...

Thanks! The stated goal is one and the same with the Vladivostok area, so we're set. With all the European interventions, I'm starting to wonder if China is long for this world! :) So, yes, I may need to take as much as I can, WHILE I can! ;)

Winning might get your a new unwelcome neighbour ... Russia.

Actually, I'm banking on that. I could use a land border with Russia, because landing these guys by sea in high-attrition coastal provinces makes it difficult to actually sustain a war with Russia. A land border allows us someplace to retreat to, not to mention someplace to lure them into so THEY get the Attrition! :) I'm pretty much set on another war with Russia, anyway. They still hold my cores!

Thanks, everybody, for reading, and especially to those of you who've commented! Another update almost ready, and will post it tomorrow. As I mentioned above, it should be EXCITING! ;)

Rensslaer
 

Lord Durham

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Well, if the Chinese proved anything, it's they are good at stopping bullets.

Those MGs make a nice difference, and by all means keep fighting. BTW, there appears to be some text missing in your first paragraph. "And the Chinese..."

I finally purchased V2 and AHD, though loading them onto Windows 8 was an adventure. Looking forward to giving the game a test drive...
 

misterbean

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Misterbean!! Welcome! Great to see you in another AAR, and in a different forum, even!

yeah, in fact the past couple of months, I've been branching out, getting to know EU3, V2 and CK2. So any chance to learn is helpful.
 

Rensslaer

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SerenityPagoda2_zps26d8d530.jpg

Japan might have had reason to wish that the war with China would end, but they had no interest in merely a status quo peace, such as they’d been forced to accept in the previous war. This time they not only wanted compensation for all the Japanese blood shed on the Manchurian steppes, but also believed she had the strength and technology to compel it.

Japan wanted eastern Manchuria, so that China would no longer loom over the home islands.

1880Battles_zpscdc98e6d.jpg


As the war wore on into 1880, the slaughter of the Chinese troops in Manchuria continued. Both at Ninguta and Jinzhou, smaller Japanese armies waged battles against enormous Chinese swarms, and came away the better for it. But never unscathed. The Japanese armies were losing men and cohesion with every new human wave attack.

The enemy armies were so massive that not all of them could fight at once. The drawback to this was that once many had been killed or forced to withdraw, there were always fresh troops to take their place, and so battles lasted for weeks. This continually wore down the Japanese armies, and over many months it was having a debilitating effect, since there were few, if any, fresh Japanese armies – they were all ground into the dust, or had to find a brief respite between battles to recover.

This process of continual grinding down was how the Japanese army that had been defeated earlier, at Utchan, was forced to retreat to Ulusamudan – a tired and ragged force that was again attacked there – and then, after another defeat in late January, was forced to retreat still deeper into Manchuria, toward Aigun.

CongoConference_zps04cf667a.jpg


And, here, events from outside of the 2nd Sino-Japanese War intruded upon the attentions of Japan’s government. The Europeans were holding a conference to determine the process of colonizing and civilizing African lands. While Japan was not specifically invited, it was clear that she was not excluded either, and might send delegates. This was a high honor, of sorts – to be regarded so highly by the Europeans that they might sit at the same table and negotiate as equals. Such was the result from having defeated Russia, and for having carved out a colonial portion of Asia, in Korea.

At the same time, Japan’s appearance would be clearly foreign. Was Japan so like the Europeans now that, not only would the Europeans admit them to their foreign conferences, but Japan would behave like Europeans? The Emperor decided that, though it would surely cost Japan prestige in the eyes of the world (in actuality, Japan GAINED prestige by refusing, in that it felt such a conference beneath her – prestige rose from 108 to 114), that it would be inappropriate for Japan to appear with the despoilers of Asia which Japan opposed on principle. Japan very firmly had no ambitions to colonize Africa, and that would surely represent a dilution of her very interests, which were centered so clearly in Asia. Japan sent polite regrets with an observer who was without portfolio to participate.

Warscore1880_zps73eba907.jpg


Now, as Japan continued to kill the enemy on the battlefield, and even have significant victories over them, a problem (your ears ringing, Funnyman? :) – this is the “problem” I mentioned earlier, related to warscore and winning battles) eventually became apparent – a problem which could ultimately spell defeat as surely as the wearing down of her troops. For all these victories, Japan was winning the battles, but not the war (translating into game terms, I was locked in at the maximum of 25 Warscore from winning battles – I could not gain more, which was necessary to claim HaIshenwai Region – without physically conquering territory).

It would be necessary for Japanese armies to somehow force the battlefront away from some of the coastal lands so that the process of subduing the territory could proceed unmolested. This would be difficult, with the stream of Chinese armies always rushing on.

GuangdongConcession_zps928fc770.jpg


In February, good news came from the halls of the European capitals – the Dutch have declared war upon Japan’s enemy, China, with the intent of seizing land in the south. France and Spain have joined alongside in this war.

While this is bad news in a global context – Japan does not want more foreign intrusion in Asian lands – it’s certainly good news for those who want a conclusion to the war. Indeed, this might result in fewer armies marching north, which is what mostly keeps Japan from conquering territory and being able to finally finish battles, rather than simply entering later stages of war over the same lands.

But that would take time, and Japan’s armies were losing because they were simply too exhausted. At the end of February, Gen. Matsudaira lost in the mountains of Saghalian Oula, and Gen. Arisugawa lost at Jinzhou, though he took 66,000 enemy with him. Then, Mar. 4, Gen. Arichi lost his entire army (the one which had been chased from Utchan to Ulusamudan to Aigun), which had been harried for hundreds of miles across Manchuria. They were each relatively minor losses, but it sapped morale.

NingutaVictory_zps2ce702cf.jpg


March 10, Gen. Zhao finally admitted he had been beaten by Gen. Tetsutaro Yamagata, having lost nearly 60% of his 250,000 man army (which had been added to as the months-long battle waged). Yamagata had lost 47,000 himself, but that paled compared to the devastation wrought upon the Chinese. Still, losses like that were not affordable for Japan.

And because China had an endless supply of troops, this marvelous victory by Japan moved them hardly at all when they were asked again to come to the negotiation table (the total Warscore remained at 31% despite a 24 Warscore victory on the battlefield – I was at my limit, and these huge victories were irrelevant!).

By the end of March, Gen. Terauchi was having difficulty coping with the sheer number of the enemy his army was forced to take on at Mukden. His command began to falter of the sheer weight of responsibility. On April 1, he was forced to give way, and the Chinese armies began to march once more into Korea. It was a key setback.

BarbarianHordes_zpsb4d2b90d.jpg


The French were finally waging their own war in southern China. Japan still held out hope that this would stem the flow of new armies from the south.

Even as Chinese armies battled to defend their own provinces in northern Manchuria, and even as they had again invaded the north of Korea, Japan was finally, by the middle of May, securing some of the demanded territory along the coast, and even inland at Ninguta.

ManchuriaFalling_zps30a8958e.jpg


With each province of the demanded territory that fell, the likelihood of the Chinese accounting the province lost increased. The war might end, finally, because Japan was able to take control of these lands.

But even some of those lands that had already been secured were under threat of being overrun by China’s trump card – her superior numbers.

MayPortArthur_zpsc93fd0ac.jpg


Gen. Takamori Kanin was battling to defend Port Arthur, which was exposed since Terauchi’s defeat at Mukden. There was some question of which army would falter first – China’s superior number of troops were able to deploy to envelop Kanin’s flanks, and his own armies were deployed incorrectly, with the cavalry in the center.

The Chinese won a battle at Hamhung, and pushed deeper into Korea. By June, there was fear that a pivotal battle at Jilin, immediately north of Korea, might be lost.

HardPressed_zps284d38df.jpg


And even at Kimchaek, it was as if the Chinese had finally learned to defend properly against the machine guns, and were taking fewer casualties as the result of smarter tactics. For once, Gen. Arisugawa faced his equal on the other side, in Gen. Ma Kang’an.

Inadequate Japanese reinforcements prepared to dive in, where they could, even as Chinese troops had penetrated as far south as Pyongyang. For all Japan’s victories, and for all the territory she had gained, could the balance in this war really be turned around by the Chinese once more?

CrowdingBack_zps7c8538c0.jpg


It was as if the Japanese Army had finally given its all, and could do no more. It was spent. Chinese armies invested the northern provinces of Korea as aggressively as they had in the early days of the first Korean War.

Ironically, that was the time when China chose to admit they were beaten, and they came to the peace table seriously, willing to do what needed to be done to bring the war to a close.

June1880Peace_zpsf75a75bb.jpg


Perhaps they knew that Japan would have time to catch her breath and come back with rested armies before these Korean provinces could be brought under heel. And, in fact, that was probably a realistic assessment. But Japan was glad for the break – for not having to go through, also, that ordeal.

The peace gave Japan control of the coast of China along the whole Sea of Japan. Eastern Manchuria was full of a rich population of varied ethnic types, all of which joined the Empire of Japan. The Emperor hoped that this would become an asset to his country in the years ahead, and these lands would be a base of operations for future wars against both Russia and China.
 

unmerged(616751)

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The war with China maybe over (and a glorious victory it was!), but I fear the europeans are setting their sights on Japan next.
 

Surt

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China going from 3:1 advantage against the Japanese goes to a 1:3 disadvantage against the combined might of Japan, Netherlands and various others :)

So how many Japanese do you estimate died in the conflict, including attrition? 200K? 300k? or more???
 

Seelmeister

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It was indeed a costly victory, with some bruising battles, but Japan has emerged triumphant. New forts will need to be quickly thrown up along the (much englarged) border with China, and I assume the depleted Korean armies will require reorganisation. With your increased population the Empire's income will receive a boost - what are your next targets? Tiawan and Manchuria are regions which should be protected by Japanese influence, lest the West decide to take a bite out of China.
 

dodedo

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how close are you to making Korean states?Now that Korea is safe you should start to industrialize it. I think LIT induces assimilation so keep plugging those education techs!
 

sprites

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That's Nice ! but , being used to RL borders , it feeld a bit weird ..
I may try something , but i have AHD so China will be a lot different ...
 

olvirki

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A glorious victory ! I also like Japan's new borders :).

How is Russia strong is Russia militarily compared to you ? The Suez canal has been built, and I don't think a nation can deny another nation passage through the canal in this game, so maybe you would have to worry about the western Fleet of Russia in the event of a war over Sakhalin or some other region. Can you match the land force of the Russians ? In any case you probably need some time to recover though. Also, maybe it is better to expand into China first (with the Europeans taking their own parts of China).
 

FelixMajor

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The butcher's bill for that war was even greater than I would have imagined. I had suspected that Japan would secure some stunning early victories when numerically things were more evenly matched in the theatre and Japan was fighting in favourable terrain. I did not anticipate how rapidly China would bring superior numbers to bare in the theatre. Now I wonder if Japan will remember the part that the Dutch played in snatching victory from the jaws of defeat when thirsty eyes begin turning to Indonesian oil fields. There is of course plenty of time before that happens and the balance of debts may have changed by that time.

That border with Russia looks worrying when your armies have been bloodied so. It will take some time to rebuild and reinforce. Now would be the perfect time to take from Japan what they would have otherwise nabbed from China. If such a war does occur Japan's best battleplan might be to dig-in to defensible terrain and hold the line until the Russians tire.
 

Ricardo Rolo

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Jun 5, 2011
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Ok, it looks that the fears of European intervention on China after the Japanese had bloodied their armies out materialized earlier than I though :/ Anyway, it looks that you need to thank the French for their timely vulturing , because that was surely the pivotal point on the AI acceptance that it had lost the war.

And now it looks that you are solidly poised for a Northern strategy ( grabbing chunks of Manchuria and Siberia ). I assume that you took the Vladivostok area exactly to have a fortified beachhead vs the Russians, instead of grabbing the far more defensible Taiwan :D So, time to replenish the armies, makes forts, research nerve gas and prepare to kill some Russians :p