Serene Republic of Venice - too Serene?

[Negru Voda]

In my last 2-3 games I've repeatedly gotten Genoa expanding and land grabbing [once along the South of France all the way to Catalonia; this time around into Tunisia, and nearly always into Sicily] - in contrast to the Venetians which have sat up to the end as a 1 province realm.

I wonder if you guys have seen any exceptions to this. Also what do you think determines these outcomes? Big neighbors? Just peaceful AI?

Admittedly, after the Legacy of Rome expansion I think Venice's Adriatic ambitions are nearly completely crushed - as I've yet to see the BYZ being seriously challenged by the Muslims.

 

[Effixel]

In all my games (numbering two) Venice always ended up being swallowed by the HRE, and then being given to some random German Lordand jumping from duchies to duchies as a sort of a bargain token. Eventually in my first game I managed to put it back into my Italy though. I haven't looked yet at what happened to it in my third game.

 

[Isaios]

as I've yet to see the BYZ being seriously challenged by the Muslims.

Wait. What? How?! In at least a third of my starts since LoR, the Fatimids nab Greece after the Seljuks nab Armenia. Huh.

Anyway, while it does APPEAR as though Venize is less likely to expand, they do sometimes go out and build a small empire. It seems like it's an either/or though. Oh, and I saw Pisa blob once.

 

[MasterOfGrey]

In my recent game as Wales (still ongoing), Byzantines held off the first Seljuk invasion and then managed to bog down for some good old survival. Venice did absolutely nothing as a result UNTIL the pope called for a crusade on Egypt to break up the Fatimid blob (which had taken all of Arabia and the Levant). At the end of it all the pope awarded Egypt to Venice after it hired just about every mercenary in Europe. Suddenly it's been a lot more active, fighting off 1 Jihad and holy warring for a duchy that was in rebellion to the Fatimids when the crusade succeeded but was brought back under control afterwards.

 

[Sian]

Pisa have a tendency to blob as well, with the Sardinian counts under them ...

Venice have a tendency to sit around doing nothing since that in their end of the ocean there aren't really any One Province Counts, while both Pisa and Genoa pretty much can take their pick in the west. While Venice is one of the strongest Provinces, they still suffer from the fact that they only is 1 province while the other doges have more, directly or indirectly

 

[Goodfortune99]

In my games, Venice often stays neutral in all things. Genoa expands largely and Pisa after it get indenpendent.

 

[Casiru]

Havn't seen Venice do much of anything, its a weak 1 province country that usually has long living unambitious leaders. They don't even have any de-jure claims since its a 1 province duchy and there are very few independent realms left just 20 years after the game starts. Venice isn't going to try eating the HRE or something... and they are usually rich enough to stop AI republics from beating them in a war.

The current metagame doesn't allow it access to its historical holdings since it usually means dealing with an empire.

 

[Lord Finnish]

I haven't seen either Venice or Genoa expand more than a province or two. Genoa usually takes a province or two in Sicily while Venice often finds itself in Dyrrachion/Zeta region if the Byzantines are destroyed. Other than this, they are rather peaceful folks.

 

[Yxklyx]

Yes, it's too serene. Venice should be a minor though important imperial power during this period of this game and I hardly ever see anything like that. Genoa plays well though. Someone mentioned it might be because Venice only starts with 1 county while Genoa starts with 2.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I don't understand why Paradox made Venice a kingdom but left Genoa and Pisa as duchies. I'm pretty sure that Genoa was always the stronger and more influential early on (during most of the CK II period) and Venice didn't become a major player until the early years of the Renaissance.

Doesn't it seem a slightly arbitrary decision, or have I got this wrong?

 

[Yxklyx]

I don't understand why Paradox made Venice a kingdom but left Genoa and Pisa as duchies. I'm pretty sure that Genoa was always the stronger and more influential early on (during most of the CK II period) and Venice didn't become a major player until the early years of the Renaissance.

Doesn't it seem a slightly arbitrary decision, or have I got this wrong?

Wiki uses the term Imperial for Venice in the early 1200s - Duchies in Istria and Dalmatia, etc...

 

[PureBeef]

In my latest games with LoR Venice usually holds large chunks of Northern Italy.

 

[Arcathias]

In my first game after Legacy of Rome as count of Lyon to eventual King of Burgundy, the Holy Roman Empire shattered spectacularly, leaving Italy to be completely dominated by Venice, which is now invading Byzantium.
Genoa dominates the Western Med and frequently loses to Venice, the kingdom of Sicily took the African coast and all the christian kingdoms of Spain annihilated the Islamic powers and are now invading Mali.
The Ilkhanids own the middle East and wiped out Islam by converting to Catholicism and just toppled Egypt, the Golden Horde overran everything up to the borders of what was once the Holy Roman Empire and converted to Sunni Islam. So now everything east of Germany and north of the Teutonic dominated Carpathian Mountains is Islamic, the Horde though collapsed into rival khanates.
The Khan of Bohemia is invading Germany and the Khan of Hungary is being overrun by Byzantines.
Its a weird but fascinating game.

 

[Amadeu of Savoy]

Venice should have a larger role in the mediterraneum. Didn't they have control over all Adriatic coast in the late 1000s? Also, they should have a larger role transporting troops over the sea, but that is just my dream.

 

[Ithvan]

I've seen them expand quite a bit. If a coastal province (has to be a single province, I think) becomes independent, Venice gets a free Coastal Invasion CB, and they usually win because of mercenaries. They once conquered nearly all of the Kingdom of Sicily and the Adriatic coast in one of my games. Perhaps that region is exceptionally stable in your games?

 

[Isaios]

I don't understand why Paradox made Venice a kingdom but left Genoa and Pisa as duchies. I'm pretty sure that Genoa was always the stronger and more influential early on (during most of the CK II period) and Venice didn't become a major player until the early years of the Renaissance.

Doesn't it seem a slightly arbitrary decision, or have I got this wrong?

It's at least partially arbitrary. In 1066 there's little to distinguish the four major republics. Venetian supremacy is only established sometime in the 12th (possibly even later depending on interpretation), but they were always a Serene Republic, while Genoa only became Serene some 20 years after game end.

 

[Prince Michael]

1.07 with Imperial Reconquest Casus Belli was not nice to the Most Seren Republic Of Venice.

In 1.06 they could prey on OPMs and sneak into blobbing if Sicily, Croatia and co. were unstable. I had many games then where Venice could become at least a middle power. The most funny game I ever have had, was when I had an antipope too long, the moral authority of Catholicism went to 0. Venice became Lollard and went Holy War crazy. Later they became Shia and the Serene Doge was an Italian Wali-Malik (Muslim equivalent of serene doge...). Search the Strange Screenshot thread...

In 1.07 it is the Byzzies who punish the same poor lords, with their CB and all Venice does is sit. On the other hand Genoa does very well (3 games experience, 1 was observe game) and bullies everybody in the Western Mediterranean. In my current game they took Venice, too, but sadly they can't (?) form the Serene Republic. I think they should be able to form an own Serene Republic, if they hold, say, 3 republics (duchies). Or just put the limit to 2 ducal titles, just like in feudal characters case.

In the same game, when I noticed that Genoa had taken Venice, I searched for the exiled Doge. I found him and managed to lure him to court. I shouldn't need to tell that the -40 tyranny penalty for imprisoning an innocent and then banishing him was totally worth the 59k cash he had...

 

[Sleight of Hand]

As of Thursday, the Byzantines will no longer have the Imperial Reconquest CB -- rejoice!

 

[Prince Michael]

Yeah, that's great! The greatest update ever, after the stopping of lowborn general spam!

 

[Negru Voda]

I assume PI will make the Republics more lively with an expansion just for them. I'd like to see the Reps work on coasts, a bit like Holy Orders do in the Holy Lands. I recall reading that Doomdark mentioned somewhere that one feature that never got implemented was Trade Post Holdings. These could be like the Holy Order castles that pop up in the holy lands.

Say, for example you are on good relations with Venice [or some republic]. There is a chance for an event to fire up [maybe this fires during a Summer Fair event chain], where a Merchant delegation arrives and asks to set up a Trade Post in one of your coastal provinces

- you can reject them incurring a relations hit
- you can accept, giving you some (permanent? +5/post?) relations boost; the holding is like a city, that gives you some tax [from trade revenues and whatnot]; also random tech spread should be higher due to trade networks [if for example you have a trade post of Venice, and Venice also has a trade post in some high tech province]

- The danger would be that in cases of civil war or instability, the holder of the trade post might decide to consolidate their hold on the territory and get aggressive.
- You might also have trade tax levels for trade representatives of each republic, so that you might tax Venice more than Genoa [but this might not be such a crucial feature]

These trade posts could also work as neutral ports for ship-hire, where you can press a raise ship button [even if you are not the dejure liege of the province] and pay the republic for that service. Every time you click, you get 10 ships [perhaps the post can have different sizes to accommodate more ships and larger revenues]. That way you don't have to always hire the whole navy [as is currently the case].

This trade post model could work wonders for the Hanseatic Zone, as well as the Mediteranean.

As of Thursday, the Byzantines will no longer have the Imperial Reconquest CB -- rejoice!

I should probably play BYZ before then