Separatism

[moscal]

One of the problems the EU game was that the game was not able to simulate the mechanism of formation of new identities. Absorbed states, nations after X years disappearing from the map and become part of a large country / nation. But in the history of the were created state or nation "out of nothing" eg. Zaporizhian Sich (not Kiev Rus, Ruthenia or Ukraine), Republiek van Swellendam or Catalonia. Now, if state-conqueror will take the land and changing her religion and culture on their own, then there is no chance of the new nation would be built.

What would I want to? The creation of new states and nations, outside a clearly defined list and restaurants former nationalisms.

 

[Wizzington]

What mechanics do you propose should lead to their emergence?

 

[Ibrins]

For this I would suggest a new rebel type, a mix between patriots and pretenders: they would only siege provinces of the owner's primary culture/culture group, and whatever provinces they held upon enforcing demands/having them accepted would form a new country, with the highest-bt province becoming the capital, the country's name being based on the capital (same as the random nation generator) and the rebel leader becoming the ruler.

Of course, foreign culture provinces could use a mix of pretenders-nationalists. Same formation principle, only have them siege provinces of a particular non-accepted (or just foreign) culture.

I guess they could also create a new culture within the old group, based on the capital's name and location.

While I don't find this to be that big of a deal, if it were to be actually added, it could potentially add tons of flavour and even further the replay value by adding a brand new randomness factor into the game - even ironman runs!

More flavour and replay value is always good

 

[moscal]

This can be a simple random event - if is low stability or high WE, high autonomy or any other problems in the country event creates a random TAG and culture (not obligatory) for a few neighboring provinces + rebels army. Or when blasted of bourgeois revolution in the great monarchies event occurs "wave of bourgeois ideology" creating new TAGs.

 

[net.split]

Additionally there could be a dynamic "Release Nation" peace deal where you carve a nation out of the target from scratch. It would use the dynamic nation system, as mentioned above (maybe even give the player the option to name it if they're forcing its release, though that's not necessary). To keep this from becoming way too powerful & ubiquitously used, I recommend using some mix (not necessarily all) of the following restrictions:

• You cannot choose provinces of the same culture as the host nation
• You can only choose provinces with > 50% Autonomy
• Per-province release cost (in warscore) is twice (1.5?) as high as the standard Release Nation function
• All provinces in the newly-formed nation must be physically contiguous or islands in the same sea zone
  
• All provinces in the newly-formed nation must be in the same culture group

The AI would use this function fairly rarely; only when they'd like to release a nation to weaken an enemy but there are no viable nations to release. A random province from the set of released provinces with the highest development value would become the new capital (and default name).

Idea set could come from the parent nation, releaser nation, or random.

 

[Ilightmaster]

Like a new disaster type ?

 

[moscal]

Like a new disaster type ?

Reluctantly - separatism has always been a sudden event, not the process. It suddenly people said, "We aren't Poles, Russians, Spaniards, French, Mexicans," etc. The government suddenly learned that (for example) white settlers from the north-east do not feel Mexicans but Texans.

 

[Trademaster]

There is no need for a new mechanic. Nationalists and patriot rebels are enough. The problem is that it is very easy to defeat any rebellions since your army always overpowers them and even if it doesnt you can just wipe them out one stack at a time.

The solution would be similar to Victoria 2 where army regiments defect to the rebels.

And this cant be done without large changes to manpower and recruiting.

So no.

 

[Ibrins]

There is no need for a new mechanic. Nationalists and patriot rebels are enough. The problem is that it is very easy to defeat any rebellions since your army always overpowers them and even if it doesnt you can just wipe them out one stack at a time.

The solution would be similar to Victoria 2 where army regiments defect to the rebels.

And this cant be done without large changes to manpower and recruiting.

So no.

While the player would indeed be able to squash most rebellions with relative ease, that is not the case for the AI.
Instead of some AI minor falling to peasants, or losing a few provinces to nationalists, why not have a completely new country split off it, and, perhaps, even form a new culture within the old group? It would be much more interesting seeing a new tag form instead of going "so I guess Delhi couldn't hold Punjab this time either, huh" or "eastern Europe is an enclave-fest again" every single game. Flavour, man, flavour

 

[net.split]

Plus there are countries that can't be split off into other nations because there are no additional tags there. You can't carve up Portugal, for example, and only small parts of England and Russia can be split off in most cases.

 

[BaZERGer]

For this I would suggest a new rebel type, a mix between patriots and pretenders: they would only siege provinces of the owner's primary culture/culture group, and whatever provinces they held upon enforcing demands/having them accepted would form a new country, with the highest-bt province becoming the capital, the country's name being based on the capital (same as the random nation generator) and the rebel leader becoming the ruler.

I think rather than being exclusively targeting related cultures, maybe they should be a bit more geographical. Like if the province to be capital was decided when the rebels spawn, and then the rebels would concentrate on provinces closer to it first.

I'm wondering if supporting this kind of rebels militarily would be possible though, i'm not sure provinces owned by countries count as rebel occupation, so helping them might actualy restrict their potential size instead.

Another thing is how they spawn, event-only, or also exist as provincial rebels? They could be in place of peasant rebels, being more likely to replace peasants the lower prestige and stability of the country is.

 

[LRDK]

What mechanics do you propose should lead to their emergence?

Maybe the Dynamic random nation generator in the upcoming patch.

 

[IcyBlizzard]

It could be triggered on something like:
( )No core (By any nations other than the holder)
( )Unaccepted culture
( ) 10-50 years without a core

 

[moscal]

It could be triggered on something like:
( )No core (By any nations other than the holder)
( )Unaccepted culture
( ) 10-50 years without a core

-1

Eg. Republic of Yukatan had this same culture as Mexic.

 

[Camarada78]

If I may suggest, the mechanics could remain the same, just the approach to culture and religion would change.

Instead of one religion and one culture, hard-changeable (either 100% catholic or 0%) it would add the concept of minorities and secondary cultures.

A province would always have three religions and three culture types and it would add a percentage of the benefits or troubles (as it is today) according to its share:

Religion for a place like Albania (in 1444):

Catholic 30% (state religion) adding 0.3 of the benefit of being the same as the state.
Orthodox 60% adding 0.6 of the penalties of being an heretic religion
Muslim 10% adding 0.1 of the penalties of being a heathen.

The same goes to culture:

A conquered and "culture-converted" Navarra in France could be
Cosmopolitaine 60% (nations primary), adding 0.7 of the benefit of being the "culture of the leader"
Basque 30% (Navarran primary), addin 0.3 of the penalties of being outside the culture groupd of the Leader.
Castillian 10% (Navarran secondary), addin 0.1 of the penalties of being outside the culture group of the Leader.

***

What this would change the mechanics? Not much, just it will rise a lot of possible rebels even in culture converted provinces.

 

[moscal]

@UP - but... this has nothing to do with the separatism.