Seniority or primogeniture?

[IlyaZ]

Gavelkind is not a cool thing, splits up your nice holdings too much. So I decided to change that now, but I can't decide what to pick. Seniority or primogeniture?

Seniority picks the oldest person of the dynasty? So that's the oldest person with that red-blood icon in the entire game? That sounds pretty safe as someone always would be around. But I guess that person would be target of permanent assassination plots as everyone could hold a stake in getting rid of the oldest one in line. The game says only the first born heir will get upset (and he alone would have no power to do anything about it).

Primogeniture picks the first born, which gives a more limited pool of people to pick from. I guess only siblings would try to get rid of each other there. Game states that most people will be somewhat upset about that policy, that would likely add some instability. Maybe they would get together and force seniority or elective through eventually if they were given too much power.


And how do you legitimize bastards? (Not just after birth, and I guess that such a thing would ruin relations with people even if it doesn't print it out in the options).

 

[Werther]

A problem with seniority is that your characters are always.... old (surprise!) and have more chance to die very quickly (re surprise!) so it's a problem for your relations with your vassals (malus for short rule), and not a really good idea for a kingdom. If 90% of the character die before 10 years, it's difficult to change the laws:laugh:.

+ the problem with the traits "ineffective" (sorry don't know the english translation of "incapable"): it's for old person so... more chance to have this with seniority.

 

[sherardy]

I always go primogeniture, really it's your best bet.

 

[0Emmanuel]

Pah, real men play gavelkind!

But, in seriousness, you have pretty much laid out the pros and cons yourself. Seniority gives a relations bonus to all dynasty members except the oldest son. They do have a tendency to want to get to their turn more quickly, though. Also, most people who inherit will be pretty old and have short reigns, meaning more time spent with the assorted penalties.
Primogeniture ensures a neat and straight succession, but the whole family dislikes it. If you have a habit of giving family members land, some of them might plot to change it.

As for bastards, to legitimize a bastard not at birth, but later down the line, you have to at least have acknowledged him. If you did, you can legitimize him whenever you want by choosing the option in the intrigue tab. It's in the list with "invite noble", "hold a feast" and stuff, at the very bottom.

 

[Lathund]

Since it's hard, or impossible, to be able to switch to primogeniture in some cases and seniority is out of the question as I like my heir to rule for more than 5 years, I switch to elective to avoid gavelkind. Naturally you have to be in a position where you have enough clout to make sure that your vote is the decider (Or give your intended heir the means to vote too), but so far that hasn't been a problem for me.

I would still prefer primogeniture, but I had to switch to elective in a panic earlier today. I was the Queen of Navarra. Good stats, good traits, good relations despite the penalties associated with female rulers. Until I get excommunicated, and the King of Leon uses the Excommunication CB to force me to abdicate in favour of my son. So far so good, as the prestige hit to the (former) queen didn't really matter. Except that he is a minor. And his heir is his father, who is not of my dynasty. So if he dies in the next 4 years (he was 12 I think), it's game over. To make matters worse, he's homosexual (Disliked by others and lowered fertility), and almost as soon as he came of age he was excommunicated too.

So there I was, disliked by everyone and excommunicated, struggling to produce an heir, and still years away from being able to change to Elective law to get an heir. Now it turned out ine; excommunication was lifted, I had a daughter, and survived long enough to change the law, which I did as I only had one daughter at the time.

Moral of the story? Go elective, for the sake of your mental well-being I quite like it as it allows me to choose the best heir, and is very very useful in cases where someone in your dynasty stands to inherit titles by marriage, titles that you want "you" to have.

 

[HobbesMkII]

In my experience, Seniority is a good option for transitioning from Gavelkind to Primogeniture if you're unable to switch because your liege doesn't have high enough Crown Authority. It's major plus is that you can build up your own holdings if you establish a well-landed dynasty by marrying them off to people with holdings. Then, each time your ruler dies, you gain territory. You can then use Seniority to trigger Primogeniture if you have a child who is ambitious by making them your most powerful vassal and pissing them off, leading them to develop the plot for switching your duchy/kingdom to Primogeniture. Then just lose the war when they rebel.

But, ultimately, you're trying to get to Primogeniture.

 

[The Andy-Man]

In primogeniture, can nephews and brothers inherit should there be no sons?

 

[unmerged(410903)]

Seniority actually might give a greater score, if you can inflate your ruler's piety/prestige quickly. Since you are playing more characters quickly, you should score very highly if you are able to get
their numbers up.

 

[Ullin]

Seniority actually might give a greater score, if you can inflate your ruler's piety/prestige quickly. Since you are playing more characters quickly, you should score very highly if you are able to get
their numbers up.

Or if the next in line ruler has high prestige due to a given honorary title (like cupbearer, etc)? Something I will have to look into since Duchy of Bohemia starts as seniority....

 

[themrwho]

http://crusaderkings.wikia.com/wiki/Salic_Consanguinity << Why don't we have this one in CKII? I used that one in CKI and I miss it badly.

If I understand how it works correctly, it is what (most) male rulers need! Such as;
* I am the ruler and Uncle John, even if you are 120 years old, sorry but you cannot inherit a thing. Be good to me and I might give you some land. Be bad (assassination attempt) and we'll catch up sooner than later.
* I am the ruler dear Brother, (and your wife with +99 intrigue), sorry but you cannot inherit a thing as I have so many kids already. Do not try anything crazy.
* Dear vassals, do not dream of democracy either.

Thank you very much for your service to the King & Country.

Why have it no more?


Edit - as they do in 'real life', just pick a Duchy for your heir apparent (say Duchy of Wales) and every time a new King is crowned, as the first act, grant Duchy of Wales to your heir (throw in some other duchy/counties if necessary) and ensure he is 'ready' for crowning when the day comes. He has the most demesne in the realm (right after king), he is the strongest militarily, he has the highest prestige & piety etc. he is demi god next to holy King himself. This is the way it should be, no?

 

[icon41gimp]

http://crusaderkings.wikia.com/wiki/Salic_Consanguinity << Why don't we have this one in CKII? I used that one in CKI and I miss it badly.

If I understand how it works correctly, it is what (most) male rulers need! Such as;
* I am the ruler and Uncle John, even if you are 120 years old, sorry but you cannot inherit a thing. Be good to me and I might give you some land. Be bad (assassination attempt) and we'll catch up sooner than later.
* I am the ruler dear Brother, (and your wife with +99 intrigue), sorry but you cannot inherit a thing as I have so many kids already. Do not try anything crazy.
* Dear vassals, do not dream of democracy either.

Thank you very much for your service to the King & Country.

Why have it no more?


Edit - as they do in 'real life', just pick a Duchy for your heir apparent (say Duchy of Wales) and every time a new King is crowned, as the first act, grant Duchy of Wales to your heir (throw in some other duchy/counties if necessary) and ensure he is 'ready' for crowning when the day comes. He has the most demesne in the realm (right after king), he is the strongest militarily, he has the highest prestige & piety etc. he is demi god next to holy King himself. This is the way it should be, no?

It's not in the game because it's not even remotely balanced for gameplay. Having a choices that are no brainers just leads to a stale game.

 

[zxc]

In my first game, as the Duchess of Toscana, I expanded my immediate borders a fair bit around Italy. However, on my death, it all split into two duchies, where my heir got the Toscana half and my sibling got the Genoa half (which was equal in size). I soon switched to Seniority succession, and then when my duke of Toscana died, the Genoan duke brother inherited the lot. So I ended up ruling it all as Genoa.

 

[Keve69]

Always try to aim for primogeniture imo, if you can't because of Kingdom laws I'd take elective over seniority any day of the week. In most cases even if you happen to lose an election you've probably set yourself up anyways so that it won't be an issue retaking what democracy deprived you of!

In short: Gavelkind < Everything Else

 

[trajan]

In primogeniture, can nephews and brothers inherit should there be no sons?

Yes. If you have no sons/grandsons then the succession goes back to your brother and his children, if any. If not, then back to your uncles and their line, if any, and so on and so forth.* Once you breed a few generations, there should always be someone to take over under primogeniture even if they're quite distant.

*If you're using agnatic-cognatic primogeniture it can be even more complicated as the succession can go through women as well. So this could be game over if you didn't marry them matrilinearly.

 

[xGhost4000x]

Elective is my favorite, I won't use any others.

 

[kingofparades]

It's not in the game because it's not even remotely balanced for gameplay. Having a choices that are no brainers just leads to a stale game.

It CAN be somewhat balanced with vassals being more upset by it, events, other such things. Also would probably be mutually exclusive with agnatic-cognatic or full-cognatic.

 

[Alerias]

Gavelkind isnt that bad. The demesne bonus and the great Opinion bonuses arent negligible. You just need more intense dynastic management, with strategic titles granted to your chosen heir, turning unwanted heirs into bishops or assassinating them if need be, etc.

Stacking titles on your chosen heir has the extra benefit of ensuring high prestige when he inherits.

 

[n000b]

In my first game i found Elective to be absolutely great, its really nice that you can actually choose your heir. But if you dont have loyal vassals its unsafe.

 

[Taghan]

I use elective, it's a high-risk high-reward system.

It's especially good when most of the electors are of your dynasty.

Theoretically though, I prefer Open-Agnatic (known in CKI as "Consanguinity"), unfortunately it is largely unavailable, the only place I've found it is among muslims using the demo-click glitch.

 

[MasterofMagic]

A problem with seniority is that your characters are always.... old (surprise!) and have more chance to die very quickly (re surprise!) so it's a problem for your relations with your vassals (malus for short rule), and not a really good idea for a kingdom. If 90% of the character die before 10 years, it's difficult to change the laws:laugh:.

+ the problem with the traits "ineffective" (sorry don't know the english translation of "incapable"): it's for old person so... more chance to have this with seniority.

I agree with this ^ while it's a sure thing it will be a painful and eventful choice as they won't be ruler long (in most cases) before they die and you have to deal with all that desent all over again in short time frames. cosac primodentures is the way to go for sure.

Elective while nice can kill you in a quick death of the next ruler, while it might be easy to place the most recent one on the throne if he/she dies too quickly you could be out of a job and out of the game.

I really miss salic consanguinity as that one was the most safe and put the BEST heir on the throne with the best stats at your demise. I can see why they took that out though for challenge reasons since it was such a nice safe exploitive selection.