Seniority and rota system

[Chlodio]

CK2's depiction of seniority is wrong, as sorts the succession by age, in reality, the seniority system functioned like a ladder, where the ruler was succeeded by his brother, and when the last brother died, he was succeeded by the oldest brothers oldest son, and after all oldest brother's sons were deceased, the property moved to their oldest uncle's children and so on.

Rota system, on the other hand, is an interesting variation of agnatic seniority, where they would exclude the descendants of princes who died before they ascended, making the pool of heirs significantly smaller and easier to track.

Correcting seniority and adding rota system variation of it would be a nice addition

 

[Denkt]

Correcting seniority and adding rota system variation of it would be a nice addition

I think more succession laws is nice to see. I would not be care if somebody made up some interesting succession laws that was never used if they actually add to the game experience

 

[Arko]

I think more succession laws is nice to see. I would not be care if somebody made up some interesting succession laws that was never used if they actually add to the game experience

Creating or tweaking your own laws could be nice indeed.

 

[Denkt]

Creating or tweaking your own laws could be nice indeed.

I suspect it would be possible to create a system that allow for Creation of custom succession laws

 

[Arko]

I suspect it would be possible to create a system that allow for Creation of custom succession laws

How a succession laws actually act is quite complex (calculating the whole succession line, getting the right heir is the GUI etc. ), hence why it was hardcoded in ck2 I guess.

 

[Denkt]

How a succession laws actually act is quite complex (calculating the whole succession line, getting the right heir is the GUI etc. ), hence why it was hardcoded in ck2 I guess.

Well it probably is correct but I suspect you can do something like they did with religion in Holy fury

 

[Mackus]

No. It's even worse than that.

It looks as if the game sometimes determines successor by character id. Person with lower id number inherits first. Which 99% of time is the same as if it was determined by age, because usually older characters were created first, and therefore have lower id. Usually...

 

[kviiri]

My guess is that rota will never be in CK3. It just has many unusual features that make it a pain to implement and to play with. Eg. you know how you normally can only lose your demesne when your character dies? Not so with Rota, where you will change domain whenever someone up the ladder dies. It's unlikely that can be represented with the existing background logic for other succession laws.

And then there's the case of actually playing it... you know, jumping between domains whenever someone up the hierarchy dies. It's not going to work well with CK3 mechanics.

 

[Chlodio]

My guess is that rota will never be in CK3. It just has many unusual features that make it a pain to implement and to play with. Eg. you know how you normally can only lose your demesne when your character dies? Not so with Rota, where you will change domain whenever someone up the ladder dies. It's unlikely that can be represented with the existing background logic for other succession laws.

And then there's the case of actually playing it... you know, jumping between domains whenever someone up the hierarchy dies. It's not going to work well with CK3 mechanics.

I did not suggest a full rota system, but merely a variation of the seniority.

 

[Pied-Noir]

Yeah I'd definitely like to see a proper brother-to-brother succession law, be it seniority or whatever else.

 

[Kazmir]

Creating or tweaking your own laws could be nice indeed.

The ruler's oldest brother's youngest nephew's father ought to always inherit upon the ruler's death.

 

[Denkt]

The ruler's oldest brother's youngest nephew's father ought to always inherit upon the ruler's death.

If it is complex it must be good

Think how the ruler (familiy?) tree would look like after a few successions with something like that

 

[fr-rein]

My guess is that rota will never be in CK3. It just has many unusual features that make it a pain to implement and to play with. Eg. you know how you normally can only lose your demesne when your character dies? Not so with Rota, where you will change domain whenever someone up the ladder dies. It's unlikely that can be represented with the existing background logic for other succession laws.

And then there's the case of actually playing it... you know, jumping between domains whenever someone up the hierarchy dies. It's not going to work well with CK3 mechanics.

But... I fully disagree.
Yes, it is weird to a degree. But not much weirder than handling Republics or bureaucratic empires like Byzantine or China. In fact, it is a bit easier to represent. All lands/titles are kind of sorted in their seniority. When family member dies, junior climb up the ladder, getting better demeshe. The youngest ones may lose their rights to success at all if they are pushed in queue.

Initially it worked the way that all Ryurikovichs initially split whole Rus. However, essentially with establishment of separate Houses, they made some domains patrimonial, which gameplay-wise more or less corresponds with each House holding their domains patrimonial, but whole Dynasty pretending on the highest held rank - the seat of power, which was Kiev for Rus or, well, the capital usually (which was not freely movable).

It is similar to how Republics and Byzantine Empire should work. They must support having temporary demeshe that they administrate according to their position.

I don't see how it is impossible to represent or why would region be banished from having unique flavor.

 

[Bulan]

The rota system seems horrible, both from a gameplay and governance perspective. What incentive was there for Rurikoviches to make capital improvements to their lands if they expected that they would leave and go somewhere else whenever a family member above them died?

 

[fr-rein]

The rota system seems horrible, both from a gameplay and governance perspective. What incentive was there for Rurikoviches to make capital improvements to their lands if they expected that they would leave and go somewhere else whenever a family member above them died?

Well, they did develop later concept of patrimonial lands and later their Houses split further into smaller duchies.

The idea was that it mostly helped to avoid civil wars on succession. There are way fewer dynasty conflicts like they had in early days if all major successors are guaranteed to have their turn. Gameplay-wise it means a much closer attention to your House, where you are interested in keeping your family strong rather than your character only. A communal gameplay.

The main difference between gavelkind and rota is that as any son you can succeed. Meanwhile, dying too young screws over your succession - as it was said, if you die before ascending your sons become izgoi - non-inheriting. Which is why there was a push to make more patrimonial lands for different Houses of Rurikids.

 

[Drakken]

Except that this mythical Rota system, as described by legends, quickly devolved into systemic fratricides and civil wars as brothers murdered their other brothers and nephewa to move up through the hierarchy.

In truth, the "Rota system" is rather well represented by Gavelkind - except with a nominal hiearchy in the inherited titles.