Semien Always Dies

[TheTeaMustFlow]

According to Wikipedia, that font of all knowledge, the Jewish Kingdom of Semien, also known as Beta Israel, existed as an independent nation from it's founding in the 4th century to its annexation in the 16th century by the Ethiopian empire. While there were conflicts with their Christian neighbours (culminating in Semien's destruction), these were more matters of territorial competition than the large-scale religious warfare between, say, Christians and Muslims.

You wouldn't think this from looking at the game, where poor little Semien will be lucky if it lasts even a year from any start date before becoming Miaphysite or Sunni chow. Given that is a one-duchy nation surrounded by much more powerful neighbours with nothing better to do who will holy war it approximately 5 minutes into the game.

I would suggest that Christians no longer be able to Holy War Jews, given that, although there was clearly conflict between Jews and Christians in the middle ages, there was no more the large-scale military invasions suggested by the Holy War Casus Belli between them than there was between Catholics and Orthodox, Miaphysites, or Nestorians. The conflict that did occur would be better represented by other consequences of being Infidel (e.g. diplomatic penalties, rebellions, etc.)

This would also mean that Semien could do something over than serve as Abysinnia's weetabix.

 

[Damarrocarion]

This would also mean that Semien could do something over than serve as Abysinnia's weetabix.

In 1066 start, Semien/Axum is biggest individual power in East Africa, unless you count Egypt as such. So it balances out. As you have one weak and one strong Jewish start in both regular starting times.

 

[DukeDayve]

Unfortunately that's just how the game is. It's de-jure part of a large kingdom/empire... so all the AI sees is a piece of land it needs to try to take as that's what it is programmed to do. This happens with all independent Jewish realms. They're too small to defend themselves. As you say, Semien disappears very quickly. Khazaria sometimes survived a few years... I've even seen them grow quite a bit... but inevitably they get overpowered by their neighbours within the first 100 years (usually within the first 5 or 10) and eventually there's not a single Jewish ruler in the lands they have at the beginning of the game... never to return...

In fact the only time I've ever seen succesful Jews in CK2 was in one weird game where I was playing as Byzantines and for some bizarre reason the Umayyads, who held most of Spain and most of west Africa, converted to Judaism en-mass. The Caliph, then all his vassals, then slowly every county became Jewish religion. I had nothing whatsoever to do with it. That's the only time I've ever seen it.

 

[Prince Michael]

I think they could well use a bit of event troops, like so many rulers (many of the Zoroastrians, Norse etc.), already have. They wouldn't tip the balance in the long term but they would give them even a slight chance to survive, at least for some decades.

 

[Jale]

Or a holy order that exists prior to the reformation of the high priesthood. The Zealots aren't historical anyway, perhaps there should be a second, weaker Holy Order called something like the Kanai or Sicarii that is ahistorically available to defend the faith earlier on.

 

[DukeDayve]

Event troops don't do the Zoroastrians any good lol... they wouldn't do the Nestorians any good either... what's the point in prolonging something which is inevitable unless the player intervenes? It's gonna happen... just let it happen.

 

[Damarrocarion]

Karen apparently survived as independent entity for longer than they do in CK2. Yet you don't see Zoroastrian fans complaining them to be buffed to make sure they do not die within 10-20 years as they usually do in the games (though combined with lucky streak with religious rebels, they have taken Khiva couple of times).

So why should Semien get special bonus in this regard for ToG start, just because they are Jews, when they are available as strong entity in 1066 start.

 

[Jale]

Karen apparently survived as independent entity for longer than they do in CK2. Yet you don't see Zoroastrian fans complaining them to be buffed to make sure they do not die within 10-20 years as they usually do in the games (though combined with lucky streak with religious rebels, they have taken Khiva couple of times).

So why should Semien get special bonus in this regard for ToG start, just because they are Jews, when they are available as strong entity in 1066 start.

Well, because history suggests that at the period *directly around* the Old Gods start, little old Semien kicked Axum's butt with the help of the pagan tribes of the region. If that doesn't justify a few event troops, what does? There's a reason that the start gets stronger in those 200 odd years.

 

[Prince Michael]

Karen apparently survived as independent entity for longer than they do in CK2. Yet you don't see Zoroastrian fans complaining them to be buffed to make sure they do not die within 10-20 years as they usually do in the games (though combined with lucky streak with religious rebels, they have taken Khiva couple of times).

So why should Semien get special bonus in this regard for ToG start, just because they are Jews, when they are available as strong entity in 1066 start.

I'm not following. The Zoroastrians were quickly wiped out in reality, so they get and should get event troops to survive in the game. Semien were alive and kicking long afterwards, so they shouldn't get event troops to make them survive in the game? Just because they are "filthy Joohs"? I don't get it.

 

[Damarrocarion]

Well, because history suggests that at the period *directly around* the Old Gods start, little old Semien kicked Axum's butt with the help of the pagan tribes of the region. If that doesn't justify a few event troops, what does? There's a reason that the start gets stronger in those 200 odd years.

And current CK mechanics have East Africa crawling with pagans tribes that you can ally with under current mechanics? Perhaps Semien just sent chancelor to Abyssinia to work on relations so Abyssinia used de-jure claims elsewhere while saving money for Ethiopian band and then proceeded to kick some ass?

 

[Prince Michael]

And current CK mechanics have East Africa crawling with pagans tribes that you can ally with under current mechanics? Perhaps Semien just sent chancelor to Abyssinia to work on relations so Abyssinia used de-jure claims elsewhere while saving money for Ethiopian band and then proceeded to kick some ass?

To follow the logic, the Karen event troops should be removed, just send your Chancellor to Saffarids and you will be good!

 

[Jokolytic]

History is stranger than fiction. Semien, in most other imagined scenarios, shouldn't have lasted as long as it did.

 

[Damarrocarion]

To follow the logic, the Karen event troops should be removed, just send your Chancellor to Saffarids and you will be good!

*facepalm*

I repeat it again. In 1066 start you have Semien as biggest power in East Africa. The problem here is that you (and others) are attempting to justify that when starting from ToG, things should happen along the lines they did historically (as much as we know of it) so come 1066, Semien would be the same as in Stamford Bridge start. Should we toss Capets a bone in ToG start to make sure Karlings get wiped out instead of lasting forever?

AI is never as smart and cunning as human player, so of course AI Zoros, Jews & West Africans typically get wiped out since AI is unable to grasp stuff like swearing fealty and eating up the realm from within or in case of Khazaria, not pissing off his money on stupid things.

The only problem with them as human player is the stupid hardcoded "Must not marry infidel" rule which stops alliance building, even between rulers who share culture*** but differ in religion.

If Semien would get event troops, this is most likely outcome what would happen under AI control.

1) AI determines that Kassala is weak neighbor where he can expand
2) AI declares holy war on Kassala
3) Every Miaphisyte ruler in Africa joins the holy war in defense
4) Semien is curbstomped by Miaphisyte blob and must pay reparations
5) Count of Kassala laughs all the way to the bank and orders higher walls from local handyman
6) King of Abyssinia kicks in the door and holy wars now bankrupt and troop depleted Semien.

So in short, about as predictable as AI karen pre-RoI where he always wasted event troops on useless province of Merv instead of something useful like duchy of Khiva and then died painfully.

(***Which really should be of more importance than religion)

 

[Raczynski]

The list of things that happened in history that doesn't happen in CK is practically endless. I don't see the point of this thread.

 

[Prince Michael]

*facepalm*

I repeat it again. In 1066 start you have Semien as biggest power in East Africa. The problem here is that you (and others) are attempting to justify that when starting from ToG, things should happen along the lines they did historically (as much as we know of it) so come 1066, Semien would be the same as in Stamford Bridge start. Should we toss Capets a bone in ToG start to make sure Karlings get wiped out instead of lasting forever?

*facepalm*

1066 is irrelevant here. You have yet to argue comprehensively why the various Zoroastrians should get that many (or at all) event troops, when their rulers were wiped out really fast (in fact, one might argue that their position is already too strong compared to reality in 867) but Semien shouldn't. Semien DIDN'T get wiped out, but apparently got stronger, but they do die fast in the game. The only difference I can see that you are arguing is that because they are Jews, they shouldn't get event troops. I'm just not following the logic.

So why should Semien get special bonus in this regard for ToG start, just because they are Jews, when they are available as strong entity in 1066 start.

I'm not arguing that this and that ruler should get event troops, I'm after consistency. In this case the logic is totally upside down - those who got wiped out, are buffed, those that survived, are not. Applying those event troops should help the realms survive which are doomed in the current game mechanics but did survive very well, not to throw the balance out of the window or to direct into ahistorical paths. Do I have to explain more?

e. To be clear, Semien apparently don't need any buff in 1066, so you don't have to bring 1066 into discussion any more. We are only speaking 867 here.
ee. In addition to their event troops, the Zoroastrians can borrow money from the Jews. Semien can't do that, being Jews themselves.

 

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Even if what happened historically is unlikely, it should still be remotely possible within the game. You should be able to look at one bookmark, then the next, and see the progress of events as plausible. A state which historically survived for over a thousand years should have a chance to survive at least ten.

Simply put, Semien was never subject within the span of the game to the kind of religious warfare that the holy war cb represents. It's interactions with it's christian neighbours were more like those between a catholic state and an orthodox one than those between a christian state and a muslim one. Thus, given that it is one of the few models for such interactions, I suggest that Christian-Jewish holy wars should not be allowed.

 

[TheTeaMustFlow]

In addition to their event troops, the Zoroastrians can borrow money from the Jews. Semien can't do that, being Jews themselves.

On a side note, it always struck me as odd that one of the big weaknesses of the Jews compared to other non-pagans was that they didn't have access to Jewish Moneylenders. One wonders what Semien and Khazaria did to offend their brothers in the faith.

 

[Damarrocarion]

I suggest that Christian-Jewish holy wars should not be allowed.

I would not mind this change in mechanics, would be relatively minor thing in all regards. What I was against was people above requesting event troops and special holy orders. But right now mechanics are what they are and ToG Semien is bit like Slavic Oborites in 1066. There for fluff's sake and soon to be gobbled up by the Kaiser unless controlled by human player.

On a side note, it always struck me as odd that one of the big weaknesses of the Jews compared to other non-pagans was that they didn't have access to Jewish Moneylenders. One wonders what Semien and Khazaria did to offend their brothers in the faith.

Well....Khazaria does have that 1000 gold. If people get as vocal with "Buff Semien!" threads as they did with "Buff Khazars!" threads, Paradox will probably toss them some extra money too. But again, it will not change the fact that AI is pants-on-head retarded and will not use it wisely and eventually Miaphisytes will gobble them up in ToG start.

It's what current mechanics have in store for small, infidel nations surrounded by hostiles. For example, Gilan can sometimes pull of a win against weak Abbasid Caliph at the start but AI will use reparations to build a new holding and get blabbed by Saffarids, instead of using 900 odd gold to acquire some nice small piece of real estate, like Georgia.

 

[kdonovan]

The problem is not Semien, it's that conquest in general is far too easy in East Africa.

 

[victimizer]

East Africa is way too small, still. It should be 2/3rds of India's size or something.