See the Paris Commune, Kronstadt, and Catalonia.
This is getting a little off topic though, and I think we've bickered enough. Lets hear what some of the others have to say.
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This is getting a little off topic though, and I think we've bickered enough. Lets hear what some of the others have to say.
Helter Skelter said:
Correct, that was a bit of a tangent. We are not here to discuss ideology, but practice. Now, I can understand the desire to shorten working hours. However, there are some issues that must be addressed.
6 hours is not a great deal of time. Most part time employees work at or near this amount. Now, I am not familiar with the bill well enough to truly discuss this in as much detail, but I will try.
6 hour days present 2 problems in my eyes. 1. Ability: A man who practices a task for 6 hours a day will not be as trained as one who practice for 8-10 hours a day. And so I imagine that the quality of work will drop, though I can not prove this.
2. Money: This will hurt people. Not everyone will be able to get by on a 6 hour day, some people have to work more. Also, businesses will hurt as well. Most will not be able to maintain a greater work force, and so hours will shorten, meaning less money, meaning less pay. Do we not already have a hard enoguh time getting to the bank before it closes? Imagine if it was half the hours.
I am not opposed to individual businessess setting 6 hour work days. I am opposed to a government regulated system of work hours. If an employee wants shorter hours, he should get a job that has shorter hours. So, I propose that the EBA oppose the 6 hour plan in that it is government mandated and harmfull to business and industry in general.
For more than 60 years the IWW has demanded the 4-hour work day. While this position is often seen as utopian today, when the IWW adopted it the American Federation of Labor was officially committed to the 6-hour day, which several unions had won in their contracts, and the U.S. senate (hardly a radical body) had overwhelmingly passed legislation to establish a legal 30-hour work week.
The bill will be written when the GA resumes, but as I had said before - 8 hour pay for 6 hours work.
There are two basic reasons why we work overtime: 1. Because our employer demands it and we work it to keep our job. 2. Our wages have not kept up with the cost of living, so many of us have been forced to work overtime to be able to pay for those things we need.
But no matter how much we may make with overtime, we cannot buy back our lives and those things we have lost being slaves to continuous production. For when we work these long hours we have little time for anything else but to work, eat and sleep.
How does Germany get by on so few hours? They've gone to a 7 hour work day. Higher wages, shorter working hours, and more vacation days ever year. Plus, socialized health care and higher education. And, in case no one noticed, the Germans have a pretty solid economy. German wages for manufacturing jobs were 32% higher than US wages in 1997.
The bill will be written when the GA resumes, but as I had said before - 8 hour pay for 6 hours work.
There are two basic reasons why we work overtime: 1. Because our employer demands it and we work it to keep our job. 2. Our wages have not kept up with the cost of living, so many of us have been forced to work overtime to be able to pay for those things we need.
But no matter how much we may make with overtime, we cannot buy back our lives and those things we have lost being slaves to continuous production. For when we work these long hours we have little time for anything else but to work, eat and sleep.
How does Germany get by on so few hours? They've gone to a 7 hour work day. Higher wages, shorter working hours, and more vacation days ever year. Plus, socialized health care and higher education. And, in case no one noticed, the Germans have a pretty solid economy. German wages for manufacturing jobs were 32% higher than US wages in 1997.
Germany also maintains a high unemployment rate and you completely dropped the ball and missed a big point to overtime, which is why communists shouldnt be allowed in power, ever. Sadly Josephus has a bad following going with him right now which could cost the ESA come seneate elections but thats for another time. Overtime is also something many peoples use, to get paid over and above their normal wages so they can have *extra* money to buy *extra* items. Like when a small business owner drives an old beat up vehicle so he can afford to maintain an *extra* worker and keep the business running.
If you want to work 6 hours a day fine, but you get paid for 6 hours not 8.
If you want to work 6 hours a day fine, but you get paid for 6 hours not 8.
Since when does shortening the work day prevent overtime? Last time I checked having an 8 hour work day didn't stop people from working overtime. Actually, having a set work day is what allows overtime to exist. So, if you want to work extra to get those extra things, it'll be a little easier. Workers don't want to work more hours. They want more income.
Overtime is typically concentrated in those industries where unemployment is highest, such as automaking, shipyards and steel mills, and in many manufacturing industries 50 to 56 hour weeks and 12 to 16 hour days are not uncommon. Sometimes this overtime is "voluntary" but often, even in organized shops, it's not. The bosses work us overtime because it's cheaper than hiring on extra workers to take up the slack. But overtime makes poor labor economics; like speed-ups, overtime inevitably leads to lay-offs and less income.
In the east German states, the transition from a socialist command economy to a social market economy has cost large numbers of jobs. Between 1989 and 1993, the number dwindled by around 3.6 million to approximately 6.2 million. This meant that immediately following unification there was a sharp increase in unemployment, with a rebound then emerging. This came about in part as a result of the increasing integration of the economies in east and west Germany and the enormous transfers of funds paid by West Germans in the form of taxes to the east German states.
Overtime is typically concentrated in those industries where unemployment is highest, such as automaking, shipyards and steel mills, and in many manufacturing industries 50 to 56 hour weeks and 12 to 16 hour days are not uncommon. Sometimes this overtime is "voluntary" but often, even in organized shops, it's not. The bosses work us overtime because it's cheaper than hiring on extra workers to take up the slack. But overtime makes poor labor economics; like speed-ups, overtime inevitably leads to lay-offs and less income.
In the east German states, the transition from a socialist command economy to a social market economy has cost large numbers of jobs. Between 1989 and 1993, the number dwindled by around 3.6 million to approximately 6.2 million. This meant that immediately following unification there was a sharp increase in unemployment, with a rebound then emerging. This came about in part as a result of the increasing integration of the economies in east and west Germany and the enormous transfers of funds paid by West Germans in the form of taxes to the east German states.
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You've illustrated my very point; you say that a 6-hour workday would make working overtime "easier". Easier is not always better, especially in the larger picture. In the short term, it would make all average workers happier. In the long term, it would cost them their jobs permanently. Communism and a 6-hour workday are easy solutions to a complicated economic problem. Companies need to make profit to expand, and a 6-hour workday means they do not make much profit and therefore cannot expand. Expansion is needed to decrease unemployment, as companies can afford to employ more people or pay their current workers more. Dedication and hard work usually leads to more rewards and a better quality of life eventually. Lethargy and taking the easy way out gives some short term rewards but in the long run it leads to a drastic drop in quality of life.
Since you are obviously hard of hearing, I never said a darn thing about cutting workdays to 6 hours killing overtime. Everyone prefers to work less and get paid more but life doesnt work that way so we can cut that marxist garbage right now. Forcing companies to pay people 8 hours of pay for 6 hours of work would make overtime that much harder and lower productivity that much more. No company will want to pay someone the equavilent of 40 hours pay for 30 hours work and then be forced to pay overtime pay on another 10 hours if people volunteer just to keep production and output from falling 25%.Helter Skelter said:
This is pure nonsense that the whole nation should go to a 6 hour work day. You may have missed my earlier opinion on this matter but as long as radicals like you want to force small business out of work the press WILL fight you.
A request arrives from Katerina DuMarche, Director of the Neuwestbaden Stock Exchange, for an opportunity to address the Association.
- Voshkod as demi-mod
- Voshkod as demi-mod
I also would like to request that the EBA makes an official response regarding the 6 hour workday proposal and speaking out against it from the chairman
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Alright, given that three members of seven have spoken against the 6-hour work day, and that I personally oppose it, I now consider it the official position of this organization that the 6-hour work day is not healthy for Eutopian business. I shall make a press release to that effect.
Also, I now consider it my duty to anounce the following, which I have privately discussed with several of you already.
The EBA is meant as an association of businessmen. Its purpose is to allow for the organization and support of business in Eutopia, and while the association is open to negotiation with labor, that is not its primary objective, and the labor lobby is not meant as a part of this organization, but rather as a partner to negotiate and coexist with.
Thus, it is my position that the leadership of the ECL should not be part of this organization. There is a clear conflict of interest when one dedicates one's life to socialist ideals and fighting for the rights of laborers, then one day joins a group designed uphold 'the man' which one has fought against with such vigor. Several of you are prominent members of the ECL. While I believe you can offer much in terms of advice to this association, I do not believe it is your place to take part in votes concerning the official position of the EBA.
To that effect, I offer this compromise: Members of the ECL are allowed to join the EBA as labor advisors, but do not recieve a vote on matters of policy. In this way, you may still effect change by your wisdom and experience on the matter of labor, but your conflict of interest due to your dual role will not be an issue.
Given that we all have clear cut beliefs on this subject, it is now put to immediate vote by all current members of the association.
Those effected by this decision, please understand the rationale behind it, and do not be angry with the association. I assure you, your opinions are still valid, and, even with your voting privileges curtailed, you will be able to have your say at future meetings.
Also, I now consider it my duty to anounce the following, which I have privately discussed with several of you already.
The EBA is meant as an association of businessmen. Its purpose is to allow for the organization and support of business in Eutopia, and while the association is open to negotiation with labor, that is not its primary objective, and the labor lobby is not meant as a part of this organization, but rather as a partner to negotiate and coexist with.
Thus, it is my position that the leadership of the ECL should not be part of this organization. There is a clear conflict of interest when one dedicates one's life to socialist ideals and fighting for the rights of laborers, then one day joins a group designed uphold 'the man' which one has fought against with such vigor. Several of you are prominent members of the ECL. While I believe you can offer much in terms of advice to this association, I do not believe it is your place to take part in votes concerning the official position of the EBA.
To that effect, I offer this compromise: Members of the ECL are allowed to join the EBA as labor advisors, but do not recieve a vote on matters of policy. In this way, you may still effect change by your wisdom and experience on the matter of labor, but your conflict of interest due to your dual role will not be an issue.
Given that we all have clear cut beliefs on this subject, it is now put to immediate vote by all current members of the association.
Those effected by this decision, please understand the rationale behind it, and do not be angry with the association. I assure you, your opinions are still valid, and, even with your voting privileges curtailed, you will be able to have your say at future meetings.
Phalanx said:
If I may. I do not believe we should take that approach. While we oppose the 6 Hour day, we should not state our opposition to it as an idea. I propose we object to the action not on account of its ideological existance, but in practice. We should oppose, near-universally, the administration of business by the government. It should be from this angle we approach the 6-hour day.
If we can find a better ground then take it but otherwise this group must make known publicaly that such a bill is totaly opposed by us.
And i vote to support the measure brought up by our chairman regarding the ECL and EBA.
And i vote to support the measure brought up by our chairman regarding the ECL and EBA.
Estonianzulu said:
This would definitely be acceptable to me.
On another note, I've accepted Per DuMarche's request to address the EBA.
Given that it's been nearly two weeks and the ECL members have not dained to offer even the slightest defense of their membership here, my motion shall hereby be considered to have passed, and current members of the EBA are as follows:
John O'Floinn
Michael Lundgren
Barak Mofaz
Kazimierz Reczynski
John O'Floinn
Michael Lundgren
Barak Mofaz
Kazimierz Reczynski
Katarina Dumarche arrives at the EBA for a luncheon roundtable. She is dressed in a severe black dress, her hair pulled back in a tight bun.
As the members sit down to eat (salmon steaks and aspargus), she takes to the podium.
"Good afternoon, gentlemen, and thank you for your kind invitation. I am Katarina Dumarche, Director of the Neuwestbaden Stock Exchange. I am pleased to announce that the trading floor has reopened, and that trading is brisk. I'm here today to encourage all of you, the businessmen of Eutopia, to work with us to improve the economy of the country.
"How? Take your private companies public. Raid weaker competitors and buy their stock. Trade. Infiltrate and exploit the world markets. Trade in currency, trade in commodities. Don't lock up your profits, put them to use!
"The Stock Market is a unique creature in the economic world, a window by which the normal man on the street can see the living, breathing heart of capital. When the market is up, people feel better; when it drops, they feel worse. Even those too stupid to understand the macro and micro nature of economics understand the nightly report on the market's fluctuations. Perhaps I go to far to say the Market is the economic soul of the nation, but one cannot deny its impact in the modern world.
"I did not come here solely to extoll the market. I came here to thank all of you. The business of Eutopia should be business, and you all are the creators of that business, the genesis of the capital that drives the Market, the economy, the country. Let other rave about the dangers of globalization or the inherent flaws of capitalism; you must lead the capitalist system towards greater heights. That is why organizations like this exist.
"In sum, my message is this: keep up the good work. Keep the engine of the economy revving and growing, and future generations of Eutopians will thank you for it. And work with the Market. We can be your doorway to the world markets. We're 24/7 now on the trading floor. We will be there for you and your capital.
"Thank you, and I'll take questions."
- Voshkod as demimod
As the members sit down to eat (salmon steaks and aspargus), she takes to the podium.
"Good afternoon, gentlemen, and thank you for your kind invitation. I am Katarina Dumarche, Director of the Neuwestbaden Stock Exchange. I am pleased to announce that the trading floor has reopened, and that trading is brisk. I'm here today to encourage all of you, the businessmen of Eutopia, to work with us to improve the economy of the country.
"How? Take your private companies public. Raid weaker competitors and buy their stock. Trade. Infiltrate and exploit the world markets. Trade in currency, trade in commodities. Don't lock up your profits, put them to use!
"The Stock Market is a unique creature in the economic world, a window by which the normal man on the street can see the living, breathing heart of capital. When the market is up, people feel better; when it drops, they feel worse. Even those too stupid to understand the macro and micro nature of economics understand the nightly report on the market's fluctuations. Perhaps I go to far to say the Market is the economic soul of the nation, but one cannot deny its impact in the modern world.
"I did not come here solely to extoll the market. I came here to thank all of you. The business of Eutopia should be business, and you all are the creators of that business, the genesis of the capital that drives the Market, the economy, the country. Let other rave about the dangers of globalization or the inherent flaws of capitalism; you must lead the capitalist system towards greater heights. That is why organizations like this exist.
"In sum, my message is this: keep up the good work. Keep the engine of the economy revving and growing, and future generations of Eutopians will thank you for it. And work with the Market. We can be your doorway to the world markets. We're 24/7 now on the trading floor. We will be there for you and your capital.
"Thank you, and I'll take questions."
- Voshkod as demimod
On a bulletin board in the main conference room, a copy of the Friends of Durruti press release is pinned up, with a small, handwritten note scrawled on the bottom of the sheet. It reads:
Well, I have made a speech in the GA on this terrible assault on our country. I suggest we all band together, and furthermore, ban Cornelius Dank from our Association.
Its also important to get as many people to BUY in the markets when they next open up.
Good idea, Michael. When the frenzy over the ECB bombing calms down a little, we should begin a pro-investment advertising campaign.
It's interesting that the socialist movement isn't taking a break in the aftermath of a massive terrorist attack perpetrated by their own kind. You'd think they'd want to lay low while things died down.
I'm not suggesting we start now, but soon, we should make a response to the socialist influence on college students. Perhaps run some seminars on campuses, extolling the virtues of capitalism. Some of us could go speak personally.
Thoughts?
I'm not suggesting we start now, but soon, we should make a response to the socialist influence on college students. Perhaps run some seminars on campuses, extolling the virtues of capitalism. Some of us could go speak personally.
Thoughts?