Selling Warships

[peo]

Originally posted by Meiji-Tenno
This is a very good idea, Johan Jung! I think it should definitely be built into the game.

You are right: The Japanese ships that were in Battle of Tsushima were made in foreign countries, mostly Great Britain, Japan's ally. The Kasuga and Nisshin were made in Italy.

Should this kind of feature only be for ships? Or should one be able to demand other things too, such as technology perhaps?

Not sure that military technology was given away very much.

 

[unmerged(9422)]

Originally posted by peo
Not sure that military technology was given away very much.

Yes, I don't think so either. And perhaps it would create problems: Imagine if Zulu beat British away, and then Britain gave them technology in peace, and then Zulus invaded England


Meiji-Tenno

 

[peo]

Originally posted by Meiji-Tenno
Yes, I don't think so either. And perhaps it would create problems: Imagine if Zulu beat British away, and then Britain gave them technology in peace, and then Zulus invaded England


Meiji-Tenno

can we say civ

 

[unmerged(9528)]

Originally posted by HJ Tulp
Note: the vessels Turkey ordered we're taken by the Brittish authority. Another thing that pushed Turkey to the Central camp.
This ones very IIRC. There we're two German warships that were sent to Turkey during WWI. They managed to evade the Brittish squadrons, they were sold to Turkey as soon as they arrived. IIRC

Just to elaborate: The Turkish had ordered two dreadnoughts from Britain, these were expropriated by the British on the outbreak of WWI (while Turkey was still neutral). Then, the German Mediterranean Fleet consisting of two cruisers evaded the French and British and made it to Constantinople. There, they were "repossesed" by the Turkish, ostensibly because "they needed replacements for the ships taken by the British". The German crew still sailed the ships, and they were used in action against the Russian Black Sea Fleet some 3 days *before* the official outbreak of hostilities between Turkey and Russia.

 

[stnylan]

peo

Turbines are not really revolutionary in Dreadnought because she was simply not the first warship fitted with them. After the 'Tribal' TBDs which iirc were the first RN ships with turbines it was only a matter of time before they were fitted to bigger ships.

That said, as I previously stated, the idea of a 'fast' battleship was revolutionary, and turbines contributed to that.

 

[IEX Totalview]

Originally posted by Hardu
The 19th century was after all the great age of the "Mechants of Death".

The tobacco industry? What?

 

[unmerged(10977)]

Should this kind of feature only be for ships? Or should one be able to demand other things too, such as technology perhaps?

Well, if we continue to look at Japan, the imperial army was modelled after the Preussian Army (which at the end of the 1860s was the arguable the best army in Europe). Japan will be a rather fun nation to paly. Begin with Samuraj warriors and a medieval society in 1835 and finish with top class super dreadnaughts in 1920s(!). Invading Formossa in the late 1800s, defeating China in 1895 and Russia in 1905, both on sea and on land, and occupying Siberia in 1920.

In order to pull of those military victories, Japan imported legal , educational and military systems from the western world. It also relied heavely on expanding its domestic textile industry for economic growth. It would be great to include that kind of development in Victoria.

BTW, I think battleships should be divided into Ironclads, Dreadnoughts (HMS Dreadnought), and Superdreadnoughts (HMS Warspite).

 

[peo]

Originally posted by stnylan
peo

Turbines are not really revolutionary in Dreadnought because she was simply not the first warship fitted with them. After the 'Tribal' TBDs which iirc were the first RN ships with turbines it was only a matter of time before they were fitted to bigger ships.

That said, as I previously stated, the idea of a 'fast' battleship was revolutionary, and turbines contributed to that.

She was the first major warship fitted with them.

For Dreadnought to be able to achieve her 21knots and have a reasonable endurance the committee had to consider the relative new technology of the steam turbine. The Royal Navy had experience with small ships with turbines, with the two destroyers Viper and Cobra and the small cruiser Amethyst. However no large ship, naval or commercial, had been made with steam turbines.
The decision to equip her with turbines was a leap of faith, that would prove to justified.

also

What made Dreadnought so impressive was the combination of ten 12-inch cannon, steam turbines, speed, armour and endurance. What scared the rest of the Naval powers was the speed of construction. From laying down to sea trials, October 1, 1906 she had taken 1 year and a day. The world was over whelmed by the power of the ship and the speed of her construction.

 

[unmerged(6876)]

Originally posted by Pwyll
Did not Dreadnaughts pre date battleships??

the Hood although a later model Dreadnaught was for all intensive purposes was a dreadnaught at the best and a battle cruiser at the least...The true battleships were more of an item of the second world war not the first.

No ... the Dreadnaught was a battleship. A new kind of battleship. It was (I believe) faster than earlier models, and it was the 1st commissioned all-big-gun battleship.

The Hood was a battlecruiser. Had the armament of a battleship, and the speed of a cruiser. You could call it a "dreadnaught battlecruiser", maybe. But the term "battlecruiser" implies the all-big-gun configuration of Dreadnaught battleships. The big difference was in armor (or the lack thereof). Battleships were designed to take (and dish out) a beating. Battlecruisers were more "eggshells armed with sledgehammers".

By WW-2 battleships had become as fast as battlecruisers, making the latter obsolete.

 

[unmerged(6876)]

What made Dreadnought so impressive was the combination of ten 12-inch cannon, steam turbines, speed, armour and endurance. What scared the rest of the Naval powers was the speed of construction. From laying down to sea trials, October 1, 1906 she had taken 1 year and a day. The world was over whelmed by the power of the ship and the speed of her construction.

Regarding the construction speed ...

The British (and FLotA Fisher, I guess) had motivation -- they wanted to beat out the United States. IIRC, the US was in the process of designing and building its own all-big-gun battleship at the time. The Michigan, I think it was.

 

[stnylan]

peo

You will note that I have already stated that I believe the speed and armament of Dreadnought to have been revolutionary. I do not believe that turbines were, however, simply because they already existed. They are important in helping her attain her speed, but it was the concept of a 'fast' battleship, rather than the means by which that was achieved, was really revolutionary imo.

 

[peo]

Originally posted by stnylan
peo

You will note that I have already stated that I believe the speed and armament of Dreadnought to have been revolutionary. I do not believe that turbines were, however, simply because they already existed. They are important in helping her attain her speed, but it was the concept of a 'fast' battleship, rather than the means by which that was achieved, was really revolutionary imo.

The turbines was what gave her the speed.
Therefore they were the main thing.
They also increased her endurance.

 

[LordStark]

Originally posted by The camel
lol, would be great to build a few ironclads for China so that when the Brits come and thinks the Chinese junk navy will be easy.. they`ll be in for a nasty surprise

For the record, Imperial China did have an ironclad-steamer fleet late in the 19th century. Problems in the chain of command and Chinese dependence on Western expertise to keep it operational hampered its performance.

 

[steveh11]

Originally posted by peo
No.
Both the iron duke and agincourt had turrets midships.
Ironduke 1 turret and agincourt 2.

I must be misunderstanding: isn't that what I said?

originally by Me!
I don't think so, Q. Elizabeth had 8x15"...it was the first of the Battlefleet to have 4 twin turrets (as against the Battlecruiser Fleet).
I think the last class designed for the RN with a midships turret would have been Iron Duke. Not sure which was the last commisioned, may have been Agincourt?

But don't worry, I think we both know what we mean!
Steve.

 

[peo]

Originally posted by steveh11
I must be misunderstanding: isn't that what I said?

But don't worry, I think we both know what we mean!
Steve.

Well
I might have managed to write a negation to much earlier

 

[supergamelin]

A lot of countries bought weapons including ships, whether or not they were able to build them. The condederates bought masses of weapons on the European Market, including most of their commerce raiders. The US did the same.

In 1870 the French bought weapons in Britain, sometimes including parts made in Germany, to field new armies after the early defeats. Most non European Nations equiped themselves with whatever Equipment they could purchase. The British faced Krupp guns in Sudan and later against the Boer. Those nations were not always able to use those weapons properly though.

 

[Pwyll]

This was all mentioned in the lead up to HOI....but it was never realized...even today...Iraq's entire army is/was made up of equipment they bought somewhere else...some of it was quite modern....they produced AFAIK nothing that they used.

IRL alot of second or third line equipment would eventually be sold off to more minor nations such as in South America or the Far East...even today these nations with a fairly modern industry cannot sustain a military economic engine of developing and supply of a modern force.

In many ways the fact that you can upgrade certain vehicles in HOI is laughable...but in game terms is somewhat necessary....I feel they should implement a sales system for equipment...but writing an engine where the AI can and will not be abused by this...is as always the difficult part.

 

[peo]

Originally posted by Pwyll
This was all mentioned in the lead up to HOI....but it was never realized...even today...Iraq's entire army is/was made up of equipment they bought somewhere else...some of it was quite modern....they produced AFAIK nothing that they used.

IRL alot of second or third line equipment would eventually be sold off to more minor nations such as in South America or the Far East...even today these nations with a fairly modern industry cannot sustain a military economic engine of developing and supply of a modern force.

In many ways the fact that you can upgrade certain vehicles in HOI is laughable...but in game terms is somewhat necessary....I feel they should implement a sales system for equipment...but writing an engine where the AI can and will not be abused by this...is as always the difficult part.

Iraq produced substantial amounts of equipment.
But not tanks or planes.
They made the normal guns and rockets and ammo.

 

[Pwyll]

They may have produced such things under license put they did not develop them on their own and that is where the real cost is.

 

[Tim O]

I can see a nation selling wooden warships, but Dreadnaughts? I wouldn't want another nation with modern naval vessels in an era where navys reigned supreme no matter how much money I was offered unless they were a strong long time ally with compatible interests.