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peo

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uly said:
From what I've understood from the dev diary, I don't think the theortical&practical design has anything to do with our discussion here. I think it's more of a general vs specific design: theoretical research can have wide-ranging impact but it's effects aren't as pronounced, whereas practical research focus on specific stats boost.

Actually it has.
The "secret weapons" can as I said be seen as existing on a prototype stage etc in the theoretical research rather than being able to research (and balance) things that for all intents and purpouses didn't exist.
What I mean is that the Maus won't exist as a unit but behind the scenes you will research it in the same time as the tiger 2 or whatnot but it stays in the prototype stage.
 

out

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peo said:
Actually it has.
Has it?

The only thing the diaries actually said about "theoretical research" is this:
As a general rule, there are of course exceptions, theoretical bonuses tend to cover a wide spread of technologies while the practical bonuses are more specific.
That's all. Nothing more. And note that it doesn't even say "theoretical research" but "theoretical bonus". The rest of the diaries talked about theoritcal experience, practical experience and leadership, and made no mention of secret weapons at any point. From what's been said in the diaries, the new system will have new factor that affect a country's research capacity and efficiency, but it's still fundamentally certain -- it doesn't deal with what we're discussing here at all.

If you wish to interpret the fixed research time as already including the failed experimental research, feel free, but that's just your own interpretation. It doesn't change the fact that it gives the investment a fixed cost and return that the player knows beforehand, giving the player an unrealistic perfect hindsight.
 

peo

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Having a random component to the research time is ok, but that doesn't mean that any of the secret "weapons" should be implemented in the game.
If you look at the most wierd of them like the landcruiser they were stopped at the concept stage. It is pointless to belive that it will make for a more realistic of fun game to spend development time making things that won't work.
Most people will want to play a reasonably historical game but change the outcome. Not play in an alternative universe where the maus tank was useful. So again, the theoretical research more than includes the secret weapons even if Johan hasn't stated it exactly. Failed research paths were included in the researchtimes for both hoi1 and 2 so should be so here as well.
 

out

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You don't want to play in an alternative universe where maus tank was useful, but you wouldn't mind playing in an alternative universe where Soviet allies with Nazi to split USA into four parts? Where do you draw the line?

I simply don't see where you're getting the "failed theoretical research pathes were included in research time" interpretation. That's purely your subjective reading. There is no reference anywhere to failed experimental research. Johan also made absolutely no reference to secret or theoretical research (apart from the "theoretical bonus" mentioned above).

But then that's not the point. The point is UNCERTAINTY. The dev diaries has not a single word on anything like this. So let's not get worked up over which crazy invention should get included and which shouldn't.
 

peo

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uly said:
You don't want to play in an alternative universe where maus tank was useful, but you wouldn't mind playing in an alternative universe where Soviet allies with Nazi to split USA into four parts? Where do you draw the line?

I simply don't see where you're getting the "failed theoretical research pathes were included in research time" interpretation. That's purely your subjective reading. There is no reference anywhere to failed experimental research. Johan also made absolutely no reference to secret or theoretical research (apart from the "theoretical bonus" mentioned above).

But then that's not the point. The point is UNCERTAINTY. The dev diaries has not a single word on anything like this. So let's not get worked up over which crazy invention should get included and which shouldn't.

The physical constraints should still apply you know. But fine.
No point in trying to make you understand the difference.
 

out

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peo said:
The physical constraints should still apply you know. But fine.
No point in trying to make you understand the difference.
Physical constraints? None of the secret weapons I know violated any physical constraints. Remember that while they might seem ridiculous on hindsight, they were all developed by real scientists who surely would have given up the project if they somehow violate the laws of physics.

What you're basing your judgement on is, again, hindsight. Maus and Ratte were never tested on the battlefield because the war ended before the development finished. Now in an alternative universe who's to say they couldn't have reached a working design? There's nothing inherently impossible about these weapons. They were either impractical, strategically unsound, canceled due to resource constraint, based on unreliable technology, or most often the case simply didn't reach completion before the end of WWII.

Now let's say, in an alternative universe, where the Allies didn't enter war with Poland, where Germany conquered most of eastern Europe and is sitting on vast pile of resource and IC, and where they decide to invade France through Maginot line, respecting Benelux neutrality. In this alternative universe, who's to say that uber gigantic big tanks can't come in handy? (That's in fact exactly how one of my games turned out.)

I'm not asking for Deathstar here. Your repsect for the laws of physics need not be disturbed. But please do keep your unbounded hindsight in check.
 
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GenBuffong

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Speaking of Secret weapons, does using nuclear weapons actually trigger any events in HOI2 or HOI3? For example as the USA I nuke Japan several times and nothing happens eventwise? Wouldn't you think if you started nuking cities that the country on the other end of the bomb might surrender? I'd like to see that included.
 

Oberkommando

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uly said:
One of my favourite part of WWII history was all the crazy secret weapon schemes that the germans came up with. Unfortunately this has never been included in the HoI series.

In fact, there is nothing secret about the "secret weapons" in HoI; there is really nothing to differtiate them from common techs. So for HoI3, I suggested including some of these real secret weapons: things like the Paris gun, ultra super big huge heavy tanks, super long range bombers, and various whacky experimental seaplane and CAS designs. The key for these secret weapons is that they require huge amount of research, but there is a chance that they will never work.

But that's ahistorical, you say. Well I say it's even less historical to have absolute certainty about having the desired return on your research. Germany invested in these experimental research precisely because there was no way of knowing whether they would work or not, just as the US was no more certain that the atomic bomb theory would work when they started the project: there's always an element of gamble in experimental research.

To model this, the secret weapon techs could simply require a basic amount of research. After this is satisfied, a chance of success is randomly determined for this project. This chance would work like a random event; and the player can continue to research this project in hope of having it succeed one day or they can cut the losses if he thinks it unlikely to produce result.

Of course the base time requirement and the chance of success would be modified by the "tech expertise" system of HoI3 as mentioned in the dev diary; but there's no conflict with the new system as far as I can see.

I am a 110% with you on this, i always wanted real seret or not mass developed elements on hoi. Since ever!
Like rail guns, Amerika bomber, P-1000, i even thought about a parallele development including this "Vril" designs. :D
 

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i think the secret reserch shode have only one reserch call secret reserch and it can be reserched multible times so you have to take a chance and see what you get becase all recerch was at some stage secret if you think about it :rolleyes:

but i think its a good ider (sorry for the bad spelling)
 

Alex_brunius

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I just thought of this:

Wouldn't It be great if Nukes had a range in km? And damaged everything within that range. So a hydrogen bomb used in siberia might knock out a single province only but used in a place with more dense provinces it could have truly massive effects to surronding territory aswell.

Damage could be a function of range so a weak nuke only reaching half of the range to neighboring provinces wouldn't do as much damage to the target.
 

Battlecry

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Alex_brunius said:
I just thought of this:

Wouldn't It be great if Nukes had a range in km? And damaged everything within that range. So a hydrogen bomb used in siberia might knock out a single province only but used in a place with more dense provinces it could have truly massive effects to surronding territory aswell.

Damage could be a function of range so a weak nuke only reaching half of the range to neighboring provinces wouldn't do as much damage to the target.

By 1948 no bomb had been developed that would cause immediate physical (shock/heat) damage beyond even the smallest provinces we've seen so far.
So either:
i) Damage to other province should be limited to the effects of fallout - attrition/pop growth rate (if modelled).
ii) We ignore the 1948 constraint and go into the massive thermonuclear weapons of the 1950's ("Castle Bravo") or 1960's ("Tsara Bomba").
 

Amob_m_s

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uly said:
Physical constraints? None of the secret weapons I know violated any physical constraints. Remember that while they might seem ridiculous on hindsight, they were all developed by real scientists who surely would have given up the project if they somehow violate the laws of physics.

What you're basing your judgement on is, again, hindsight. Maus and Ratte were never tested on the battlefield because the war ended before the development finished. Now in an alternative universe who's to say they couldn't have reached a working design? There's nothing inherently impossible about these weapons. They were either impractical, strategically unsound, canceled due to resource constraint, based on unreliable technology, or most often the case simply didn't reach completion before the end of WWII.

Now let's say, in an alternative universe, where the Allies didn't enter war with Poland, where Germany conquered most of eastern Europe and is sitting on vast pile of resource and IC, and where they decide to invade France through Maginot line, respecting Benelux neutrality. In this alternative universe, who's to say that uber gigantic big tanks can't come in handy? (That's in fact exactly how one of my games turned out.)

I'm not asking for Deathstar here. Your repsect for the laws of physics need not be disturbed. But please do keep your unbounded hindsight in check.

For much of this, you're right. While we can't possibly include every plausible weapon system concieved in this era, some of the relatively mainstream weapons could be fairly easy to include in the research trees...

BUT...

Let's say we do include the Maus, for example. What stats does a Maus brigade get? Remember, the stats of units in the game are based on hindsight, on how the units performed in actual WW2 combat. This is why one advanced ARM division can roll right through two or three poorly organized INF-1918 divisions in HoI2: 1918 infantry had trouble in WW1 with crude tanks, and, in the few cases WW1-style infantry were used in WW2, (Ethiopia, China, etc, in scattered incidents) they got absolutely chewed up by armor.

To get back to the Maus example, how can we give it stats based on the assumption that it would work in a specific way? Who's to say that, being as big as it would have been, it wouldn't have had a low air defence value, for example? Who's to say that the Amerikabomber would actually have been an effective strategic bomber? Then again, who's to say it wouldn't have? Because these units never saw action, we cannot judge their performance and give them a fair representation in-game. While their existence in the game world is plausible, their in-game performance would have to be pure speculation.
 

Alex_brunius

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battlecry said:
By 1948 no bomb had been developed that would cause immediate physical (shock/heat) damage beyond even the smallest provinces
Ah, but wasn't this also because of the delivery system beeing restricted to what a single aircraft could carry? (around 3'000kg "effective" bomb weight).

What if the delivery instead was restricted to what could fit into an I-400 Japanese A-bomb mod kamikaze sub that could easilly carry 300 tonnes or 100times more effective bomb weight?

What if the Japanese pearl harbour instead was such a bomb sailing into Washington by 1948? Im just thinking of whats possible within the frames of this game.

When we are still on the subject. Can we se some more logical delivery methods for our A-bombs? Subs or neutrally flagged ships would most likely be the weapon of choice for any Axis delivery considering most Allied important cities are easilly accessable by sea.
 

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Amob_m_s said:
Let's say we do include the Maus, for example. What stats does a Maus brigade get?
That's a good point. I'd say the easiest and the most intuitive solution is to simply give these tech roughly the stats that the original design envisioned them to have. So Maus would have extremely high firepower and speed of a crippled turtle, Amerika bomber would have cross-Atlantic range and etc. True, given the fantastic nature of some of these secret weapons (but not all), such stat could feel ridiculous. But this can be balanced out by having correspondingly high research cost/difficulty/failure rate, as well as very low reliability (which is a new stat already included in HoI3).

Alternatively, these special brigades could have somewhat randomized stats. Given that HoI3 will no longer have the "model" model, I think this is quite doable. It's doable in HoI2 even since the units' stats are saved individually regardless, it's just that the scripting system doesn't support altering individual unit stats.

But you raised another good point: how effective is any technology, experimental or banal? We tend to think of military technology as a long continuum of progress from the primitive to the advance: carrier is more advanced than battleship, mobile tanks are more advanced than heavy tanks, light infantry more advanced than line infantry, etc. But the truth is that mil.tech. development is inseparable from the military thinking of the time.

Case in point: only a minority of military thinkers believed in the true potential of carriers at first. They managed to convinced the decision makers to invest in research that indeed realized carriers' effectiveness, leading to carrier's domination on the open sea. But if this thinking didn't become mainstream, we could possibly have a world where battleship remained dominant, perhaps evolving straight into ultra-long range missile ships, and CV's could have remained no more than CVL and CVE in a support role. Similarly, line infantry tactics could remain useful if more investment were made into body armour research and less into light, automatic and accurate rifles; heavy armours could remain useful if defensive strategy were more in vogue; light and agile fighters could continue to dominate the sky if research for sturdy and long range bombers didn't also change the characteristics of escort fighters.

Basically, what I want to point out is that none of the military advancement was inevitable. Mil. thinkers come up with ideas and they invest in technology that would suit the ideas. They test their ideas against the enemies' ideas, and then they find out how practical their ideas were and modify accordingly. There may not be anything wrong with their original ideas, just that it may not have worked in the particular circumstance against the enemy's particular ideas. It's all very organic.

Again, our hindsight often to blind us to this variability in the background, but this is very much going on today. If you were to make a modern war game, for example, it would be completely unrealistic if you don't try to model in guerilla, insurgent, and yes, terrorist tactics. Well, I don't know any game that does it, but that's because it's still very poorly understood, and big military organisations like the US armed force is still working hard to find a workable doctrine. That's also why war games are often limited to WWII, cold war etc, because the hindsight gives us the security that "we know how things worked". But in the end it works against a really challenging and immersive game design, because there's something inherently gamey about knowing this much.

But yeah, I know it would be bloody hard to model this, though. So all I'm asking for is some degree of uncertainty and the possibility of disruptive technology in HoI3.
 

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Alex_brunius said:
Ah, but wasn't this also because of the delivery system beeing restricted to what a single aircraft could carry? (around 3'000kg "effective" bomb weight).

What if the delivery instead was restricted to what could fit into an I-400 Japanese A-bomb mod kamikaze sub that could easilly carry 300 tonnes or 100times more effective bomb weight?

What if the Japanese pearl harbour instead was such a bomb sailing into Washington by 1948? Im just thinking of whats possible within the frames of this game.

When we are still on the subject. Can we se some more logical delivery methods for our A-bombs? Subs or neutrally flagged ships would most likely be the weapon of choice for any Axis delivery considering most Allied important cities are easilly accessable by sea.

You can find all the reasons why a particular invention progressed as it did, the point is it didn't.

If we follow your reasoning we could build anything before 1948. An air-droppable light tank (bigger transports/better engines), the transistor (better micro-engineering etc), a stealth aircraft (if plastics/composites had developed faster), or a weather satellite (better radar/ballistic missiles), just to name a few out of (presumably) hundreds of thousands or more.
 

Shabz

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Alex_brunius said:
Ah, but wasn't this also because of the delivery system beeing restricted to what a single aircraft could carry? (around 3'000kg "effective" bomb weight).

There is actually a physical limit to the strength of a fissile device... I think it cannot exceed some hundreds of kilotons, because you would have an enormous mass of fissile material glowing from the bomb, killing everyone around...
 

Deus Eversor

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i think one nuke is 1kT nuke
then if we want to construct 1MT nuke then we use 1000kT
of course some special tech for nuke production so that we can eventualy afford typical 2MT nuke
but constructing a super powerfull nuke say >50MT nuke and that will be hard since it will be hard to move so much production on nuke production
 

Alex_brunius

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You can find all the reasons why a particular invention progressed as it did, the point is it didn't.

If we follow your reasoning we could build anything before 1948. An air-droppable light tank (bigger transports/better engines), the transistor (better micro-engineering etc), a stealth aircraft (if plastics/composites had developed faster), or a weather satellite (better radar/ballistic missiles), just to name a few out of (presumably) hundreds of thousands or more.
I can't se any logical connection between space issues (of the different delivery methods) and technology issues. Can you please enlighten me how you reason when you claim that using a big sub instead of an aircraft to deliver nukes can said to be anything equal to having sattelites or stealth bombers by 1948?

You point is the Axis didn't win the war? Okay fine by me lets have them loose each time too, right?

The A-Bomb was developed before 1948. Building a bigger (as opposed to more advanced/effiencent) one is hardly a technological problem. Perhaps a practical problem but not a technological one.
 

Battlecry

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I can't se any logical connection between space issues (of the different delivery methods) and technology issues. Can you please enlighten me how you reason when you claim that using a big sub instead of an aircraft to deliver nukes can said to be anything equal to having sattelites or stealth bombers by 1948?

You point is the Axis didn't win the war? Okay fine by me lets have them loose each time too, right?

The A-Bomb was developed before 1948. Building a bigger (as opposed to more advanced/effiencent) one is hardly a technological problem. Perhaps a practical problem but not a technological one.

Sorry, perhaps I should have clarified (I was tired & irritable). There are various things that could technologically have been developed by 1948, but were not. For instance all the tech required to build a B-52 Stratofortress (or very nearly all) existed by 1948 - and strategic bombers certainly existed by 1948, so why not build a B-52? Plastics existed, so why not build it out of that, and make radar useless?. etc etc.

So if we open the door to anything that could have been built by 1948, we're talking about hundreds of thousands of additions.

And an A-bomb on a sub (or just a bigger A-bomb) is certainly a possibility; my issue is with using the argument for a bigger A-bomb ("it could have been done") for all the other things that could have been done.

Pandora's Box, you might say.

EDIT: For your "logical connection":
We have A-Bombs + There's nothing stopping us form making them bigger = Bigger A-Bombs in game
is logically equal to:
We have strat rockets + there's nothing stopping us from making them bigger = ICBMs in game
and:
We have ICBMs in game + we have portable radar = a weather satellite in game

This progression of logic can go on forever, hence the problem.
 
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