Second user created map : Day of the bay

[Analad]

I'm playing the new version and in north east corner, this corner seems more animated than usual.

I get once more the problem of heroes behaving like if there was a flag at a border of the map. They run to attack a target that seems very far.

It's not an attack flag, in this game I had not used any attack flag yet and I don't use any modification.
Bellow a snapshot the further where lead the attack run.

 

[ItsEggrollTime]

I have the same issue as Analad where my heroes are drawn towards the SE corner like there's an attack flag down there. It's not a big problem for me because my fear flags are more effective and last until I cancel them so I can just throw one or two 200g flags in the corner and forget about it. I don't think this is a new problem because I remember it from earlier versions of the map.

I do however have a new problem. Did you make any drastic changes to the .mi file? I started a game and had a rogue hideout (trading post) spawn next to my castle. I let my royal guards take it out and tried to build a trading post, but there was nothing to select. No matter where I clicked I was unable to find the trading post location. This is the first time I've ever had this problem. I wonder if it's a bug with the newest map update or if it's a bug with letting my castle guards destroy it. This is also the first time I didn't place a flag and let my heroes destroy it so that can be a possible reason. I'll try to replicate the bug and take screenshots.

 

[Analad]

I already reported in previous version that some rogue guild and some portal for temple had no tradepost or holy place under them. Both happened to me for building not at all that close to my town and destroyed by my heroes with a flag. I have some savegame with the bug (both temple and tradepost).

For the fear flag I didn't try, I don't think it works like that. It will not disable interest in the target, only when the hero reach the fear flag effect range. So it's more complicate than just put a flag in the corner. Or perhaps this attraction works differently but well that's current fear flags design they have an effect only in a limited range so I don't see how it could work. On the path can work except there are multiple path so this can be complicate particularely when the area is anyway an area to explore just not that far that soon.

What I don't like with this bug is that it constantly catch the attention of some heroes and make them lost a lot of time. In the snapshot I post there was a good effect of exploring the area but few time after I got two mages killed because they got attracted, that is tedious.

 

[ItsEggrollTime]

I wonder if heroes running towards the SE corner isn't a bug with the map at all. It could be related to the line of sight of our heroes while they are standing on elevated ground. Maybe when they climb a small hill they are able to see an enemy all the way in the corner and that's why they keep running over there. I don't recall them being attracted to the corner until someone explores down there and both of us increased the viewradius of our heroes. It works great on flat ground but maybe hills screw everything up. Have you tried restoring the old values of viewradius?

 

[Analad]

In a previous version of the map I tried investigating this during a play but failed to quote anything (at this time I had never get a look to files contents so I didn't check save files).

Your hypothesis related to heights is interesting because I didn't quote it only for this corner but also two times south center in two plays, in one my castle was in east center a bit to south. In south center area there's also heights.

About modifications as I quoted I didn't use any and don't anymore since I get the feeling that the wym mod was involving too easy play in this map like a weird effect involving less dens on map (perhaps many dens are generate late and never when the area is already explored).

Also during old play where I quoted the same problem I hadn't yet use any modification. Plus all first modifications I did was in files in extenders that aren't used, only the .def file is used and must be modified directly. I'll check anyway the files to see if I still use the original packs.

The ViewRadius would hardly explain the behavior because there are many closer targets between the point aimed and the hero. It looks a lot like a weird path but is the game have different path for aiming (fly path) and walking? Or it seems really like there's a flag.

To investigate this a possible way in a play with the problem is to save often and quote when the problem disappear and try compare save files before and after and check everything in the suspect area.

 

[Analad]

Well I will not finished the game with the attractive corner, it's a too high penalty.

Another subject, I wanted see final stats with this map so I added a bit of code. In .mi file, section "helper/quests" there's already a quest defined, "stay_alive", bellow it I added another with a victory condition ending the map. You just need set a fear flag with a value of 3000 gold.

You can even add this in an existing save, in the file mission.sav that includes the same section. Here the code to add in a save:

	{"end_game"
		{launched}
		{state Active}
		{launch_condition
			{"Building exist"
				{properties
					{Kingdom player}
					{Building castle}
					{Zone world}
					{Count 1}
					{Operation "=="}
				}
			}
		}
		{victory_condition
			{"Flag exist"
				{properties
					{type raw}
					{Flag_type fear}
					{Cost 3000}
					{Kingdom player}
				}
			}
		}
		{victory_reaction
			{"Message box"
				{properties
					{title "Victory!"}
					{message "Congratulation my liege."}
					{picture GAME_MSG_ICON_ADVISOR}
					{Kingdom player}
				}
			}
			{"delay" 1}
			{"Win mission"
				{properties
					{Kingdoms player}
				}
			}
		}
		{quest_data
			{Name "End the game"}
			{Description "When you want end the game, set a fear flag somewhere with the value of 3000 Gold."}
			{Quest_type Additional}
			{Kingdom player}
			{Counter_type none}
		}
	}

The code to add in the .mi file is the same but remove the line:

		{launched}

 

[Analad]

I started a new play and this time didn't get the heroes attraction bug. I get an excellent game, not easy but not too difficult. It's rather surprising how this map can continue to be so fun after so many replay.

I noticed some improvements like the dens that seem be guarded sooner, the dragon den guarded, and some den like bears and wolves seems be a bit better guarded but that could be random. About guarding snake dens seems not guarded. I also notice something I never saw before, waves of Ogres and also an Ogres dens very well guarded (probably with help of some wandering Ogres nearby. I didn't notice much the wandering monsters but saw some in my first play and suspect some seems guard a den but don't really.

I notice there's still the nice features from the last versions like more temples. And dens generating more waves than constant flow, something I like much more.

For the special waves I changed the map setup so I still have to face them (changed from 65 to 115). For me that's the best version.

I don't see much thing to request without to change too much the current design, there's only few points:

• The heroes attraction problem that there's sometime but I wonder if this can be solved.
• Perhaps if special waves could mix random and some difficulty management that would be perfect.
• There's also the increasing strong guarding there was that myself I regret to have lost, but that's not major.

About the changing difficulty due to random it's a really nice feature if you know it because it allows you choose the play at a difficulty you like.

Great version and excellent work.

EDIT: And about not being full random but with some patterns and some random inside the patterns and some random of the patterns used in a play, it's an excellent approach of gameplay design. Majesty had this approach too but not with a significant layout more through mix of typologies of area filling, typologies of waves design and various startup setup. A fixed significant layout seems too restrictive but Bay of the Day shows it's not and it's even a plus.

 

[unmerged(129811)]

Can you give me a screenshot of a Ice Mage?

 

[ItsEggrollTime]

Can anyone tell me how to change what monsters attack in each wave? I want to remove the Imp Advisor and Baron of Logic because both of these bosses require tanks to defeat which hurts replay value. There is only 1 or 2 decent holy ground locations per game and one of them has to be Agrela due to the resurrection spell which only leaves 1 location to experiment with. Currently I find myself always using Paladins because of those two bosses but I'd like to mix it up and use the other temples. I may remove the Ancient Lich as well for the same reason.

I would like to replace them with waves of difficult normal monsters if it is possible.

 

[el_kloklo]

Here it is :

	{"invasion_00"
		{"spawn type" units}
		{raw boss_barlog}
		{Nationality Same}
		{level 0}
		{"AI task"
			{task attack_in_zone}
			{target_zone world}
		}
		{postspawn}
		{postspawn_i 1}
		{gold 0}
		{count 1}
		{"spawn time" 1}
		{"max count" 1}
	}
	{"invasion_01"
		{"spawn type" units}
		{raw boss_imp}
		{Nationality Same}
		{level 0}
		{"AI task"
			{task attack_in_zone}
			{target_zone world}
		}
		{postspawn}
		{postspawn_i 1}
		{gold 0}
		{count 1}
		{"spawn time" 1}
		{"max count" 1}
	}

remove boss_barlog and boss_imp and replace it by something else, like boss_vampire

 

[ItsEggrollTime]

Thank you. When you created this map did you make everything in the editor or did you have to go into the .mi file and type in all the events?

 

[Analad]

And you can (and should) change this same code in the save file mission.sav for having the same change in a current game.

 

[el_kloklo]

It was half written in editor, half at "hand". I've written majority of the corpus in the editor, like a spawn event and a create random lair or the area positionning, and then duplicate it in .mi file, and done search and replace, because doing all in editor would have been so long. If you use the editor, you will probably notice a boring bug which allow you to insert a new line in an event or a new area only by clicking on a small part of the screen, so at the end it was better to alt tab and edit mi files to add news, and later reload the file in editor. Also, I was unable to create "kingom" (error kingom not found) inside the editor, so I needed to create them in .mi files.

 

[Analad]

I have some editing questions related to this map, do you feel it ok I ask them in this thread? That's detailed questions.

 

[el_kloklo]

I've no known license or copyright on my secret, so I can probably reveal them. Go ahead.

 

[Analad]

Lol yes, my question was about opening a new thread or not for more technical stuff about this map. Ok I'll use this thread.

 

[Analad]

I haven't yet examined in detail all the code but still gave large look in it and also is many of the official maps.

I have some questions:

• Why in the definition of some spawn program you are using "First wave" and not in some other?
• Why in the section diplomacy>relations the third diplomacyrelation is at 1?
• To spawn at a random position, the castle or the temporary den for special waves, you don't use like in Lich King mission a spawn with "spawn type" "random zone". Any reason?
• What the point behind using multiple triggers "invasion cycle 1", "...2"... as each seems have the same contents and why instead you don't use the same trigger multiple time? Is it you want have multiple series of waves in parallel? But then isn't this make more difficult to control not having multiple waves at same time? Or that is the purpose?
• What's the point behind the series of "Building exists" != 0 on different series of dens before to start an invasion cycle? Is it to replace a test on a number of dens still up? And where is the loop when the cycles are finished?
• I saw you used triggers to define the various initialization steps. Is it to replace a procedure definition more than for some parallel running purpose?

 

[Bloodly]

Bad news, and I don't know if I could get through, Heroes need a lair. And so, I can not get waves of heroes going into, because they have no lair to get in, and if their lair is destroyed, they go away, like the ice mages.


Actually, a well-fortified enemy hero base on the map would provide an interesting challenge to deal with. And we've seen that enemy Temples don't necessarily need to placed on Holy Sites. On the one hand, it may give you a breather. On the other hand, high-level enemy Heroes are as invincible as you. Could provide something like an 'end-game' of sorts.

Something to think on, I guess.

 

[el_kloklo]

I haven't yet examined in detail all the code but still gave large look in it and also is many of the official maps.

I have some questions:

• Why in the definition of some spawn program you are using "First wave" and not in some other?
• Why in the section diplomacy>relations the third diplomacyrelation is at 1?
• To spawn at a random position, the castle or the temporary den for special waves, you don't use like in Lich King mission a spawn with "spawn type" "random zone". Any reason?
• What the point behind using multiple triggers "invasion cycle 1", "...2"... as each seems have the same contents and why instead you don't use the same trigger multiple time? Is it you want have multiple series of waves in parallel? But then isn't this make more difficult to control not having multiple waves at same time? Or that is the purpose?
• What's the point behind the series of "Building exists" != 0 on different series of dens before to start an invasion cycle? Is it to replace a test on a number of dens still up? And where is the loop when the cycles are finished?
• I saw you used triggers to define the various initialization steps. Is it to replace a procedure definition more than for some parallel running purpose?

• First wave implie that tthe spawn prog generate the count value unit at the instant it is set, and will continue later. It could very useful in some cases, like generating guardians. If there respawn time is very long, this will avoid some starting heroes trying to destroy their lair. On the other hand, some case would deprecate it : imagine if all your lair generate their attacking spawn at the second it is set, this mean you should probably get your very frist wave of low level monsters in the same time.
• About diplomacy, it's copy paste of a working map, because I wasn't able to find a way to set them via editor.
• For the random spawn castle, it's true, there is no real reason, except the fact that in the early days of the map I was unable to use it. For the spawning of lair, the reason is I can check the content of the area before spawning. So I check my random, control what is in the area of the corresponding area, and if okay, I spawn my lair.
• There are parallelel cycle of invasion, 5 at all, each generating waves of invaders. They have each a different delay time, and activate at different times, the slowest first and fastest last. The first one to activate spawn a wave around each 22 days, and the latest each two days, and there could be around 120 days beetween those. This is made in expaxtation of increasing the quantity of invader with time, in this case, you could have a wave, and when you are dealing with this one, and another one go on your back.
• For what I see, you can't use a building exist without specifying a type of building raw or a tag. Because of this, if I want to check there is no lair, I need to ensure there is no lair of wolf, not of vampire, not of zombie, ...
• the trigger for initialization is used as a procedure call. I do not like process to launch themselves untill I've specifically called them. This also allow a synchronisation purpose. If you spawn the lair in the early seconds of the map, they spawn with 10% of life, and are unable to spawn their monster.

I hope this answer to your question. If not, ask in other words, so I could probably get the plot.

 

[Analad]

I hope this answer to your question. If not, ask in other words, so I could probably get the plot.

Yes, very interesting in case I (or anybody) would try use a similar system with another map base. Just three points:

• You didn't answer one point, where's the loop for the invasion cycles? Or are special waves end at a point?
• For the lairs testing I'm not sure to have understand. I understand the limit but not why how you test some den types replace a count. Your test is a "or" on 5 or more types of dens, if the 5 exists or only one it's the same result. But well I see how complicate it is with the apparent limits of the scripting language. I'll try dig a little around this myself that's an interesting problem.
• For the early spawn of den that's a weird bug, I see you used sometime full health and if that doesn't work it's a bug.