Second Sino-Japanese War needs a complete overhaul

[Faradaux]

I have yet to see the Japanese AI win the war against China. About 30% of the time they are driven from the continent even before opening the northern front with the USSR.

However, despite this, I believe that both Japanese and Chinese national strength are modeled properly.
There are 2 reasons why China is about to beat Japan so consistently:

1. IG (in-game) China can form a true United Front, IRL China could not.
2. IG Japan cannot form a Chinese puppet prior to the peace conference.

Modeling the Chinese United Front:

IRL, the Chinese were completely unable to form a united front. Not only did the Nationalists and Communists continue to fight each other during the war, they couldn't even coordinate with regional warlord commanders. Every faction wanted the other factions to do the heavy lifting so that they could preserve their strength for the Chinese Civil War that everyone knew was coming.

Honestly, I don't really see how this un-united front can be modeled given the limitations of the current game mechanics.

Importance of a Chinese puppet state prior to war end:

IRL, the majority of Japanese led forces in China were actually Chinese. Chinese collaborationist forces from the Chinese puppet state of the Republic of China (yes, the puppet had the exact same name as the real ROC) outnumbered actual Japanese forces in China. While the puppet ROC forces did little frontline fighting, they guarded the rear against partisans, allowing the Japanese to prioritize their own forces for the front.

IG, a Chinese puppet would be a huge asset to the Japanese. My proposal is that Japan gets an event to form a puppet ROC upon their conquest of Nanking.

Lastly, there should be a war-ending event that triggers upon the capitulation of Manchuko. Had the Chinese been that successful IRL, the Japanese would have sued for peace without a doubt. IRL Japan and China had engaged in secret peace negotiations as early as 1939 when it became apparent that the war had reached a stalemate and the Japanese realized that the war was costing them more resources than it was providing.

 

[Emren]

Huh, in around a dozen or so SP games I've yet too Japan lose in Cihina! I usually slider-boost Japan to the max, though.

 

[caedussl]

I see Japan win in China a lot, not every time but it's certainly not never. I don't know how you model bickering between Mao and Chiang Kai Shek, but keeping Chinese units rather weak is a suitable work around.

Absolutely agree about forming a puppet mid-war. With this Axis focused DLC I would hope they'll be something like that here.

 

[Meglok]

I have yet to see the Japanese AI win the war against China. About 30% of the time they are driven from the continent even before opening the northern front with the USSR.

However, despite this, I believe that both Japanese and Chinese national strength are modeled properly.
There are 2 reasons why China is about to beat Japan so consistently:

1. IG (in-game) China can form a true United Front, IRL China could not.
2. IG Japan cannot form a Chinese puppet prior to the peace conference.

Modeling the Chinese United Front:

IRL, the Chinese were completely unable to form a united front. Not only did the Nationalists and Communists continue to fight each other during the war, they couldn't even coordinate with regional warlord commanders. Every faction wanted the other factions to do the heavy lifting so that they could preserve their strength for the Chinese Civil War that everyone knew was coming.

Honestly, I don't really see how this un-united front can be modeled given the limitations of the current game mechanics.

Importance of a Chinese puppet state prior to war end:

IRL, the majority of Japanese led forces in China were actually Chinese. Chinese collaborationist forces from the Chinese puppet state of the Republic of China (yes, the puppet had the exact same name as the real ROC) outnumbered actual Japanese forces in China. While the puppet ROC forces did little frontline fighting, they guarded the rear against partisans, allowing the Japanese to prioritize their own forces for the front.

IG, a Chinese puppet would be a huge asset to the Japanese. My proposal is that Japan gets an event to form a puppet ROC upon their conquest of Nanking.

Lastly, there should be a war-ending event that triggers upon the capitulation of Manchuko. Had the Chinese been that successful IRL, the Japanese would have sued for peace without a doubt. IRL Japan and China had engaged in secret peace negotiations as early as 1939 when it became apparent that the war had reached a stalemate and the Japanese realized that the war was costing them more resources than it was providing.

I will assume that you mean only in 1.3.3, since anything earlier than that is irrelevant. 1.3.3 did a couple of nasty things to Japan. It almost cut off her export markets due to the distance penalty which reduced her free CIC, and the lack of resources penalties reduce her ability to meet her production necessities. All of the Axis nations were affected but Japan is the hardest hit.
Depending on how much you move her sliders Japan can take China. Straight vanilla she probably loses now 75% of the time from the small sample I have seen. But ai Japan is in no shape to handle either the Russians or Allies afterwards.

Add Aluminum in Asia

 

[Faradaux]

The other solution is to change the base template for Japanese infantry divisions. Right now they are WAY too large for a country with so little IC.
Japan just can't put out enough divisions to cover the entire Eastern China front.

Even when playing as Germany and I send 5X Panzer divisions as volunteers, I still can't get the AI to win. There's just no frontline for the panzers to push from. As soon as I push forward, I start to get encircled cause the AI Japanese doesn't maintain a solid frontline.

 

[Damiani]

Importance of a Chinese puppet state prior to war end.

This would have to be optional for the player, though, since they may intend to have all of China for themselves rather than a puppet. But yeah, I agree this should be an event. Plus it adds historical flavor to the game if you make the event about Wang Jingwei fleeing Chongqing for Nanjing.

We should be mindful, however, of how much better HOI4 is to HOI3 in the Chinese theatre. In HOI3 Japan could steamroll through China in 3-6 months and I never saw a war last more than two years. So while it could be improved, at least it is functional, unlike other parts of the game (*cough* Eastern Front *cough*)

 

[Faradaux]

This would have to be optional for the player, though, since they may intend to have all of China for themselves rather than a puppet. But yeah, I agree this should be an event. Plus it adds historical flavor to the game if you make the event about Wang Jingwei fleeing Chongqing for Nanjing.

Neither the Japanese army nor civilian government ever wanted to conquer all of China. Their ambitions in China were limited to making puppets and establishing a few concession ports. The Japanese were emulating the Manchu model of ruling Han China with a light hand. Japan's endgame was basically a collection of puppet governments throughout the Pacific. No one would live directly under Japanese rule, but the heads of state in each puppet would still be highly favorable towards Japan.

 

[Damiani]

Neither the Japanese army nor civilian government ever wanted to conquer all of China. Their ambitions in China were limited to making puppets and establishing a few concession ports. The Japanese were emulating the Manchu model of ruling Han China with a light hand. Japan's endgame was basically a collection of puppet governments throughout the Pacific. No one would live directly under Japanese rule, but the heads of state in each puppet would still be highly favorable towards Japan.

I know, but the player's ambitions are different from the historical ones. If a player wants to annex all of China they should be able to do so.

 

[Bane5]

China needs a national focus tree that lets them relocate industry to their more western regions. That way they can still take a beating but keep fighting. The war is usually over quickly.

 

[Faradaux]

I know, but the player's ambitions are different from the historical ones. If a player wants to annex all of China they should be able to do so.

Um... I was only talking about this historical situation. Of course the player should have the option to to whatever in-game.
People in this forum should really try reading a post before downvoting it.

 

[Misaka_Complex]

Somewhere around 1940 the Japanese AI halts their invasion of China and simply sits there without making any real gains or moving troops on the border for no apparent reason. Its also worth mentioning that the Japanese AI likes to suicide its divisions through naval landings as well so its just an AI problem. Try playing against a human Japan and you'll notice how flawed the AI is.

 

[Nevrion]

Currently it is still a problematic region and the whole thing needs a lot of optimization. Neither People's Republic of China nor China have a specific focus tree which should picture the situation in these regions during world war 2.

 

[RisingSun]

China needs a national focus tree that lets them relocate industry to their more western regions. That way they can still take a beating but keep fighting. The war is usually over quickly.

It should be, and they did in the past, just like the Russian did too. I know something isn't right on the Chinese side or the AI, but playing the Japs is a different story. I was hoping they would polish the game some more in the Asia Regions, but they never touch it since the release. Even some installations are in bad places too.

 

[Meglok]

The other solution is to change the base template for Japanese infantry divisions. Right now they are WAY too large for a country with so little IC.
Japan just can't put out enough divisions to cover the entire Eastern China front.

Even when playing as Germany and I send 5X Panzer divisions as volunteers, I still can't get the AI to win. There's just no frontline for the panzers to push from. As soon as I push forward, I start to get encircled cause the AI Japanese doesn't maintain a solid frontline.

Ai Japan is penalized badly by the resource, trade, and production changes of 1.3.3. Then it is compounded by being forced into the generic templates system designed for European combat. Ai Japan can't equip every division with artillery and AT regiments like the templates try to make it do. Nor can it afford the 12 to 20 motorized divisions, much less use that many effectively. And the ai will not make near enough Marines or Mountain divisions, much less use them where they should be used. As a player I can smoke China with it's starting divisions plus about 12 more by modifying a few templates, the ai can't. Hopefully this is on @SteelVolt s list.

China needs a national focus tree that lets them relocate industry to their more western regions. That way they can still take a beating but keep fighting. The war is usually over quickly.

Meh, not recommended. Japan needs to settle ai China if it is to be viable later and elsewhere. It s a game balance issue, the game mechanics do not model a stalemate. Neither side will stop attacking if able, unless you create an artificial white peace at some point. And due to game design Japan is incapable of fighting the West without controlling China.

It should be, and they did in the past, just like the Russian did too. I know something isn't right on the Chinese side or the AI, but playing the Japs is a different story. I was hoping they would polish the game some more in the Asia Regions, but they never touch it since the release. Even some installations are in bad places too.

Pretty sure Asia, the Pacific War, and the naval system will be the focus of 1.5.



Add Aluminum in Asia

 

[RisingSun]

They also need to take out take out China without fighting, there no way the Chinese gonna give in.

 

[Gort11]

One thing I find crazy is that Japan can leave China completely without garrison after it has been annexed. There's no way Japan could leave even a defeated China completely without garrison.

 

[him_15]

The next DLC after Oak will be focusing on Asia, and I firmly believe that the Second Sino-Japanese war will be completely overhauled.

 

[Misaka_Complex]

The next DLC after Oak will be focusing on Asia, and I firmly believe that the Second Sino-Japanese war will be completely overhauled.

Wasn't 1.4 supposed to be focusing on Axis and not Asia?

 

[Bundeswag]

Wasn't 1.4 supposed to be focusing on Axis and not Asia?

Yes. Oak is 1.4. After that is Asia, just like he said.

 

[indika_tates]

Japan is a major that starts literally with no industry, no resources, a huge amount of crappy divisions & useless templates and grand battle plan as doctrine. The second part is that devs decided that Asia (except Guanxi) should have no resources which makes the invasion of China a poor movement. China is also a wasteland, there is no gain because they have at the start the same number of factories Netherlands or Belgium for example has.

The British Raj has also the same problem. In general there is a lack of resources in Asia that has to be solved (specially aluminum). The safest route is to grab oil & rubber from dutch companies before the allies can guarantee them. Asia needs a complete overhaul.