Screenshot 020918

[King]

Originally posted by Spruce
IMHO some people are taking the discussion about the Swiss fortifications out of context.

The question is = what's a fortification and what not?

In Belgium there were some defense lines with bunker complexes (around the Albert canal f.e.). These defense lines were blitzed by the Germans...

Now, a fort is a real fort. Like the fort of Eben Emael (also Belgium fort) but that was also blitzed by the Germans.

The HOI programmers didn't allocate any fortifications to the Belgium provinces?

The Swiss provinces got some fortifications and some forum members found some pictures about bunker complexes on the net...

This topic is far from "summarised", and still open for discussion...

The other thing you ahve to ask is, how difficult was it go round Eben Emael?

 

[unmerged(10761)]

Re: Re: Re: Re: switserland..

Originally posted by Maximilian I


look at the link I provided before! the things you say are
1.) wrong, historically incorrect,
2.) only wild guessing.
that`s a list of all bunkers in the defense area of 6th division:

...

Maybe if you could provide a map of Switserland 1940 that shows the bunker line complexes, that might convince us.

Note however, that in your link there is NO FLAK (but something like Flab?) units/army/detachments..whatever..
Isn't that what COULD have helped EbenEmael too ?

I believe that THE Blitz effect was based on
1) tanks wrecking havoc amongst infantry(or artillery) positions
2) concentrated tactical areal bombardment
3) terror bombardment of cities
4) paratroopers seizing important locations
5) SURPRISe assault

1) would not work in Switserland
but 2), 3) , 4) and 5) would , as the Swiss would not have ANTICIPATED such a warfare.
The fact that they rely on bunkers should prove my point (like the French relied on their 'magnificent' Maginot line).



besides I can show you the 'magnificent' waterline fortresses set up in Holland to 'deter'(sic) an advancing German army....
On pictures it looks magnificent...
..but in PRACTICE it failed...

Why do you think the Swiss model-WW1 army and their bunkers would fare better ?

 

[unmerged(10761)]

..and 6)

.6) preparations !
actually linked to 5)..
But when you are the one planning an assualt on something like a fortress, and you have the time to study it , you WILL come with a feasable solution (like paratroopers on EbenEmael, like raid on St.Nazaire, etc..).

 

[Lethke]

Did teh Netherlands have mechanised Infantry in 1939?

 

[Spruce]

Originally posted by King


The other thing you ahve to ask is, how difficult was it go round Eben Emael?

ok, you first...

give me the name of a Swiss fort that you couldn't go around?

In fact, the Germans simply captured the fort to assist their attack trough the Ardennes. They used glider planes...

Fort Eben Emael overlooked parts of the Albertcanal and the Meuse valley and was in fact the gate trough the Ardennes...

 

[King]

Originally posted by Spruce


ok, you first...

give me the name of a Swiss fort that you couldn't go around?

In fact, the Germans simply captured the fort to assist their attack trough the Ardennes. They used glider planes...

Fort Eben Emael overlooked parts of the Albertcanal and the Meuse valley and was in fact the gate trough the Ardennes...

I am having no part in the great Swiss fortress debate. The point as was tring to make was that a single fort will not be an tremendous barrier in the context of a HoI sized province. A chain of fortresses will be.

 

[Spruce]

Originally posted by King


I am having no part in the great Swiss fortress debate. The point as was tring to make was that a single fort will not be an tremendous barrier in the context of a HoI sized province. A chain of fortresses will be.

Wrong, read the following

http://maginotline.free.fr/ligne/belgique/index.htm

notice that there were multiple forts garding the entrance trough the Ardennes and the crossing of the Meuse and Albertcanal...Eben Emael was very important...especially for the German movement crossing the Meuse and Albertcanal...

 

[Toom]

Originally posted by Bobby Shaftoe
And this leads me to an interesting question. If the game begins in 1936, there is the Civil War running in Spain... with the two sides. Will the players playing any nation be able to support any of the sides, or just the one that falls into their specific alignment? (if you're USA, just help Republicans, and if you're Italy or Deutschland support Nationals). And... will be implemented a kind of Society of Nations?. I say this because I remember that all nations agreed not to interfere in Spanish Civil War. So, is gonna be something like monthly gatherings in "Society of Nations" or something like that? Or just one-on-one messages. I don't know if you understand what I mean.

actualy the USA helped the nationalist side lending them money

 

[King]

Originally posted by Spruce


Wrong, read the following

http://maginotline.free.fr/ligne/belgique/index.htm

notice that there were multiple forts garding the entrance trough the Ardennes and the crossing of the Meuse and Albertcanal...Eben Emael was very important...especially for the German movement crossing the Meuse and Albertcanal...

It's in French, how the hell am I going to read that?

However I can read maps and if I have got this right there 8 forts in an inner ring around Liege, and 4 in an outer ring. I say ring but it was semi-circular facing the Germany. The outer ring forts had a gap of an average of 6km between them and the inner ring forts about 2km gap between them. Either Belgium had some of the finest guns around or it was possible to go round the forts (not countirng terrian here). Also the outring only streched for 15 km in width (due to it's semi circular nature). So I'll ask again how an effective barrier is 15 km's of forts with wide gapos between them going to be to an invasion? Some I grant, but not a huge ammount.

Also if a read the map right Eben Emael was the most northly fort, how does this defend the Ardennes? Since Eben Emael is actually near the Duthc Border, I see it being on the invasion Route of Army Group B, not Army Group A.

 

[unmerged(7398)]

Originally posted by Wido
It's simplier if Paradox will use the true flag. It's not a matter of taste.

Yes, absolutely. Inaccurate flags were excuseable in EU2; even for countries that used flags at all from 1419-1819, researching the correct one is often nontrivial. WW2-era flags, though, are well known and documented, and there's no reason not to ship with 100% correct ones (excepting Germany, of course).

In addition to the Italian flag Wido pointed out, the Swiss and Belgian flags are inaccurate also - they should both be square. (Strictly speaking, the Belgian flag isn't square, but at a 13:15 ratio, it's only very slightly wider than it is tall.)

 

[unmerged(9377)]

SS looks fantastic, Europe in flames looks like a camp fire to what most here have planned. Bi plane is most likely a ground support unit(Happy about that) specialty Air units perhaps?
One thing on the swiss debate id like to Add, during WW2 the Wehrnacht had Elite mountain divisions that took part in Mountain operations in Russia.These Units suffered 70% casualties for very little gain. Even before they attempted the Germans knew what the risks were well before hand.
How this relates to Swiss is that the Germans knew that any attack would resut in heavy casualties.The above event took place in 41 but the high command already knew what any attack in to Switzerland would cost.

 

[Spruce]

Final remark about the fortification issue =

there were other fortifications in europe besides from the Maginot line and the "Swiss forts". The point I raised was "what has to be considered as fortifications and what not (giving the scope of HOI into consideration)?".

Some facts = the fortifications at Eben Emael were taken by the Germans at the beginning of the Bliztkrieg trough Belgium, Netherlands and France. For the Germans, it was vital enough to make a special operation for it...and take them by surprise.

These forts were vital to take the bridges over the Albertcanal and the Meuse. The forts had been build to destroy the bridges and passing troops.

Second, we simply don't know what the effect would have been on the battle if the forts would have done their job... The effect depends wether the Axis in HOI also invades the Netherlands, if the Axis doesn't attack the Netherlands, Eben Emael gets a vital key role for the outflanking attack on the Dyle line. If the Axis also blitzes the Netherlands, the Forts around Liege loose the key role and can be passed...fairly easy.

On the other hand, the Germans were wise enough to raise the
chance at succes to also attack the Netherlands and go trough the Ardennes themselves.

Allied command (French influence) believed the Ardennes not to be passable for armoured/mech. divisions and relied on the forts and the "Dyle plan" making up a defense line at the Dyle river and Meuse river. Also there were fortifications (bunkercomplexes) at the Albertcanal.

I believe it's up to Paradox to decide how large the provinces are and what is a fortification and what not...

 

[unmerged(9362)]

Originally posted by Korath
Yes, absolutely. Inaccurate flags were excuseable in EU2; even for countries that used flags at all from 1419-1819, researching the correct one is often nontrivial. WW2-era flags, though, are well known and documented, and there's no reason not to ship
with 100% correct ones (excepting Germany, of course).

It's exactly what I think. To find the good flags for WW2, people have only to go to Flags of the World. Instead, as you say, the true flags for EU2 era are more difficult (I've spent hours searching the good coats of arms and the good flags to help Birger Jarl).

 

[unmerged(3168)]

Originally posted by Spruce

I believe it's up to Paradox to decide how large the provinces are and what is a fortification and what not...

I'd agree but remember back to the screen shot of Italy the general consensus was that one of those sliders was for Fortifications. I'd imagine that when you reach a certain level you get the Fort Graphic on the map. So provinces might have fortifications without having the graphic if the graphic kicks in at say 50%. Just while we're on that point should there be different graphics for different fortification levels?

 

[Sabotage]

Originally posted by Wido

It's exactly what I think. To find the good flags for WW2, people have only to go to Flags of the World. Instead, as you say, the true flags for EU2 era are more difficult (I've spent hours searching the good coats of arms and the good flags to help Birger Jarl).

History of the flag
The Dannebrog is the oldest continuously used national flag in the world. Regions, counts, kings and the like have had flags or banners older than Dannebrog, but no sovereign nation has used the same flag as long as Denmark.

You gotta love that page...

 

[Nikolai II]

Originally posted by Spruce

Allied command (French influence) believed the Ardennes not to be passable for armoured/mech. divisions and relied on the forts and the "Dyle plan" making up a defense line at the Dyle river and Meuse river. Also there were fortifications (bunkercomplexes) at the Albertcanal.

France had a wargame/excercise sometime in 36-38 (no total recall) where one commander of 'invading' forces use the ardennes approach to crush the defence and mainly show that it was passable.

This was hushed up by French High Command since it would damage prestige of proponents of the current plans.

 

[Languish]

This is the first time i have seen any screenshots of this game, i dont usually frequent this forum, and i must say this game looks really good. I will be keeping a strong eye on this.

 

[unmerged(8830)]

I don't frequent this forum either, but I must say the screennies are spectacular. Just one question, could you give us some of the Pacific, India, Africa, Russia, and the Americas, because all the screens so far are all of Europe, and I think some of the ones I mentioned would be Great!

Thanks, Paradox