Scots Scots and more Scots

[TGApples]

It seems fairly well established in the 1v1/2v2 communities that Scots beat everything else right now. Their infantry are just better, and they have awesome support to go with it. Their only real weakness is in long range heavy tank duals, and honestly, played well, you should have won before it gets to that. I don't know how this extends to 3v3 and above, but I wouldn't be suprised at all if all Scots works best there as well.

Obviously more decks will come, but given Scots are better than the other three, I was thinking about what could be done. One way would be to buff the other three, but it may be simpler to nerf scots. Some suggestions:

1) A small nerf to vet. Wikipedia tells me division didn't fight before D-day, so why do they all start with vet? Of the four divisions we've got, the infantry of the Scots is the best in the game. Rfiles lose out at range, but on the maps we have right now that's rarely an issue and you have good MG and leader support. I propose dropping the vet, at least from Phase A. Alternatively having fewer cards with vet compared to unvetted, or raising points cost.

2) AVRE/Croc. These beasts have very few Phase A counters, and wipe out anything around them. They should either have an armour-drop, a price increase, or be moved out of Phase A. Combined with a Spitfire that threatens insta-death on any troublesome AT guns, they're pretty solid moving death bunkers for most of Phase A and early phase B.

3) Income. Scots have a rockin' Phase A and Phase B income. A lot of games are over before Phase C hits and points early gives you kills and ground, which can then be defended quite easily against points late. Getting a solid +1 through Phase A and B is not tricky, and often you'll be pushing on +2. Other divisions have better Phase C income, but by the time this comes, you're attacking entrenched positions of a player with more forces.

Other people have mentioned that the Scots AA is pretty powerful. I don't really have an issue with this right now. There seems to be a fairly major balance issue elsewhere and I see AA as a small swing one way or the other.

 

[Max_Damage]

A minor detail: PIAT should have only 150 m range similar to a pfaust. It was really short ranged and inaccurate and its weird to see its range at 200m.

 

[mitchverr]

I think people might be overestimating the actual ability of the scottish infantry, much of it comes from veterancy, when people pit them against what was it, 352 infantry and their infantry guns and the AVRE is nerfed in armour rating, I suspect that the 15th will not be "as grand" as people think.

The division didnt have veterans, but they acted like they were, they battled just as well and hard if not harder then many veteran divisions, IIRC this is why they have it according to eugen. As for them being better infantry, I would say this is variable, this depends heavily on supporting assets and again would say that infantry assault guns and AVRE usage might be giving a false perception.

AVRE is likely to be AV 9/10 in the future, its current "build" is based on a non existant hull as far as I can find and I have mentioned it when FLX asked about this in the wargame forums, its armoured as if its on a supped up MK VII, while in actuality the only MK VII AVREs I can find are post WW2 with a different gun, these will likely be nerfed to a MK III or MK IV hull, possibly a MK VI but I aint seen any AVRE version of that which would at most be AV 10 for the latter, 9 for the former as we see in the tank tab.

Croc itself is expencive for what it is in terms of gunnage, the armour is what makes it good, I wouldnt want to see it change myself. Armour drop isnt possible, AV 15 is relatively correct to other vehicles, its a heavy churchill, 152mm of frontal armour like the command churchill has, if we could call in normal heavy churchills I would say go for nerfing the croc, but as we cant, they are acting more as bullet sponge alot of the time.

On the income, they are a phase A part B deck, they are pretty rough in phase C with reguards to offencive action and points for it, nerfing this would nerf their ability to win games pretty hard depending on how much its hit. Possibly drop phase A/B/C by 5, but any more then that and they are getting a bit low, I would say however this should be post nerfs to other assets because those being hit might completely change the game for the division (eg avre no longer being godly will effect phase A, no matter what people say).

 

[holoween]

I think people might be overestimating the actual ability of the scottish infantry, much of it comes from veterancy, when people pit them against what was it, 352 infantry and their infantry guns and the AVRE is nerfed in armour rating, I suspect that the 15th will not be "as grand" as people think.

the 91st can deal with the inf by using falls or ig18 and morthars but with a 20av AVRE youre doomed since he has 100m more range then your highest ap gun in phase a the pak 40 which can pen it at 500m and after that you only have pak36at 300m and schrecks at 250m.

 

[TGApples]

I don't think the infantry need any support from tanks to be honest, it just helps. Maybe there is a bias due to the maps we have right now.

On Colombelles IGs aren't going to get any use in the factory. Using MGs and arty it is not too hard to get your Rifles into their preferred knife-fighting range by building bouncing while keeping them within the two star leadership circle. The only real challenge is crossing the area in the middle, but that's usually not too hard. You may need a Stuart or AT gun to clear out any close support your opponent brings, but the way the LoS is around there it's not too hard to get them into position. The Piats also work reasonably well. IMO If the Scots haven't cleared the factory complex in the first few minutes they've been played poorly.

The more open side of Colombelles has less of a role for the infantry, and it's in these areas where you can use the over-armoured tanks to get an edge. If they're going to be tweaked downward in armour that's great. After that, even in this region though the Scots don't really have any disadvantage: their infantry/AT guns/arty are good enough to keep up with the others for Phase A and it's only really once the AT guns start falling that you run into issues. The income advantage you have should let you push beyond 50%, and because your fellow Scots have the factory, it's job done.

I guess the other thing to consider is that there may be an Axis division en-par with the Scots in the factory. In this case, things may work out fine. Hard to say.

EDIT: I should add, I've played a few 1v1s on Colombelles against Scots. Whenever I lost I challenged the other player to a rematch with factions switched. I always won when I was Scots. Anecdotal, sure, but still true!


On Point du Hoc Scots are able to cover the line and use their Phase A and B income to push foward. They have a disadvantage in that they don't get halftrack support or sneaky infantry AT, but that's about it. Their infantry is still plentiful and strong, can cover the hedges, and the combined arms game works. Again, I'm willing to say this may be due to lack of availability of German decks: SS Panzer are really screwed with no fighters in A, and Luftlande do only a few things better than the Scots and most things worse.

 

[mitchverr]

The map thing sounds more like "division x is better on map 3" really, its hard to talk further on this due to the NDA however I can say this, on the streams, it looked like plenty of maps which support infantry gun usage, and forces proper thought and combined arms from both players.

I would say the 10v10 map is more helpful to judge actual powers for infantry, theres plenty of places to use things such as the infantry support guns effectively and when they are..... Ohhh boy they work nicely it seems, so perhaps we just need to see better maps for the current german infantry decks specialisation, akin to how you dont take open fields with paratroopers in theory type deal.

 

[Mikeboy]

One way would be to buff the other three, but it may be simpler to nerf scots.

Buffing the other three is preferable IMO. The Scots do have their weaknesses but the difference is they are always fun to play, unlike the other decks where at times it just feels a bit hopeless, as even if you were playing well there's little you could do. That doesn't make for great gameplay.

 

[holoween]

I don't think the infantry need any support from tanks to be honest, it just helps. Maybe there is a bias due to the maps we have right now.

On Colombelles IGs aren't going to get any use in the factory. Using MGs and arty it is not too hard to get your Rifles into their preferred knife-fighting range by building bouncing while keeping them within the two star leadership circle. The only real challenge is crossing the area in the middle, but that's usually not too hard. You may need a Stuart or AT gun to clear out any close support your opponent brings, but the way the LoS is around there it's not too hard to get them into position. The Piats also work reasonably well. IMO If the Scots haven't cleared the factory complex in the first few minutes they've been played poorly.

for the factory in colombelles 2 morthars work wonders. in general ive been able to deal with the 15th inf as long as there werent any avre and to a lesser degree crocs around. though i havent necessarily played against the best players.

overall though the 15th has everything that makes a deck good: morthar carriers, a good airforce, a (for phasea) super heavy tank, very strong and numerous inf, god light vehicles and high ap anti tank units.

 

[axnone]

The AVRE and croc is good, no doubt, but they are still vulnerable to beute firefly and 75mm pak. Sneaking infantry up their sides also works.

And IMO we should wait until at least new divisions are added in, talking about balance in this beta with only 4 divisions available isn 't going to be fair for other divisions. What if there's another Axis division that counters the 15th efficiently ?

 

[evilcat]

Before nerfing 15th Scotish make sure german divisions are on neutral. At least 91st have some lacks which are not needed (mostly harsh card limit, and card variatns).
Also Scots finally have FREEDOM! with not only card variety, but also card limit. 40 cards allows to prepare for anything.Again maybe just other division have too few cards and poor rooster.

AVRE is powerful unit very cost effective. It is good at what it does (charhing AT guns head on)
Is it historical? What chasis it uses? Churchill IV? Churchill VIII? Centurion?
Adjust price and armour values.
Or maybe just introduce AVRE Mk IV with 9 armour and cost 110 points.And assume that Mk VII and Centurion are post war construction.

Otherwise go full derp, take whatever chasis AVRE uses and strap 17 pound canon on top of that. It is the best way to win this war!


Croc, is less of problem since you generally have some AT able to penetrate this armour.
But it is Churchill VII with 9+6 armour, and flame canon. Cost is 140 vs 165. It is definetly cost effective. Sometimes flame canon you dont really need. Even if equilibrium price of croc is 175 i wouldnt change yet.

Veterancy seems right in regards to history and infantry type.
Veterancy does not change cost. Period.
If 15th should have one good thing it would be infantry.

It is too early to say if points are op or not. Generally phase points is the last thing to alter for balance. Most often problem lies elsewhere.

 

[Bishmoo]

Playing against scots as luft is masochistic. Your AT guns are going to be decimated by spitfires and same for your Henschel. Your infantry is destroyed by churchills, not that you could kill them anyway unless they push too far and come within 300m. Regardless, their infantry can fight toe to toe with your falls. 1v1 a StuG will be scared and be forced to fall back from a honey stuart because it cannot hit anything.

Basically only way to win is if they make a big mistake.

 

[Harold Alexander]

a price increase

PLS STOP THIS, we already have at least x2 times less units on the map than in wargame.

 

[Harold Alexander]

A minor detail: PIAT should have only 150 m range similar to a pfaust. It was really short ranged and inaccurate and its weird to see its range at 200m.

Max range of the noted use was 400 meters.

 

[Max_Damage]

Max range of the noted use was 400 meters.

yeah and a mortar can shoot at 1200m however the accuracy...

 

[Harold Alexander]

yeah and a mortar can shoot at 1200m however the accuracy...

at max range of 200 meters PIAT have 17%, in the same time panzerschreck and panzerfaust on their max ranges have more than 60%.

In the closed beta forum I was made that proposal:

PIAT is the main infantry AT weapon of British Empire in WWII, have wrong range in this game. IMO they need max range of 300 meters instead of 200 ingame meters but with small reduction in accuracy. And give it ability to fire HE rounds on range of 350 m like in real life.

"The PIAT was listed in seventy-four surveys as being 'outstandingly effective' far more than any other weapon. Its effectiveness was due not only to its tank-killing role, but also to the fact that its high-explosive bomb could be put to unconventional good use against 'soft' infantry targets, either in direct or indirect roles, making it a good source of suppressing fire. Furthermore, only three officers listed the PIAT as being an 'ineffective' weapon." Canadians Under Fire: Infantry Effectiveness in the Second World War (2009) by Robert Engen.

 

[Graphic]

at max range of 200 meters PIAT have 17%, in the same time panzerschreck and panzerfaust on their max ranges have more than 60%.

In the closed beta forum I was made that proposal:

Just an invitation to get back to HE rocket firing terminator units from Red Dragon. Put me down for a "no."

The Piat sucks, live with it.

 

[Grosnours]

To further Tigga's analysis, I'd just like to point out how many games in the unofficial tournament this weekend have been played as scots against scots, including the final.
Given the current state of units, divisions and balance, playing scots seems to be indeed the sensible thing to do in a competitive environment.

 

[Rabidnid]

To further Tigga's analysis, I'd just like to point out how many games in the unofficial tournament this weekend have been played as scots against scots, including the final.
Given the current state of units, divisions and balance, playing scots seems to be indeed the sensible thing to do in a competitive environment.

That will change with more divisions. The US has terrible AT. Once the guards Armoured is out with it's fireflys, I expect that it will overtake the 15th Scottish. AVREs will go to 9 front and the Jumbo might drop a little as well.

 

[Aeon221]

The AVRE and croc is good, no doubt, but they are still vulnerable to beute firefly and 75mm pak. Sneaking infantry up their sides also works.

And IMO we should wait until at least new divisions are added in, talking about balance in this beta with only 4 divisions available isn 't going to be fair for other divisions. What if there's another Axis division that counters the 15th efficiently ?

Avre can engage with its heavy gun at 600m, which makes it a bit tough to sneak up on with infantry unless your opponent makes a major mistake and sends it into a dense town or hedge position without screening infantry. Not an issue with Beute Firefly that can engage and destroy at reasonable range, big issue for 91 lufty which lacks high AP long range options. Another issue is that shrek teams cannot penetrate the avre frontally as they have 20ap, which I've verified in game both with the pen chance tool using the recon shreks from the front (2% listed, in line with 20ap) and through six attempted shots at the front (all of which failed).

I've found that off map arty + a quick capture or the hs129 from the side are the most reliable counters to avre for 91 lufty, but both have substantial counterplay and rely on a good bit of luck. If the Scots player anticipates the hs129 and buys an early fighter, screens the avre flanks with infantry and has a command unit near enough to prevent surrender it becomes an unkillable monster. At least that's been my experience using it and having it used against me as 91 lufty. At one point vs a particularly bad player I decided to see if the shell exploding at close range would have any impact on the avre. I moved my 55pt tank to point blank range and waited for the shell. It exploded, killing the tank and doing no damage, morale or crits to the Avre. So much for that hope!

Thankfully the front armor appears to be due a nerf so this will become a moot point. While it may be fun to use, it really isn't any fun to face something so strong when you've got a small number of chancy options to defeat it. Especially for players with less experience playing the 91 lufty.

 

[evilcat]

Croc is not as bad since it is just Churchill VII with flamethrower. Firefly or PAK 40 or HS have enought AP.
Also if we are in range of flamethrower we are also in range of panzerschrecks.

AVRE is made of unicorn hide so is completly different story. Please pick one:
a) go with Churchil IV chasis and change values of armour, price and units per card.
b) Use that godlike AVRE chasis, put 15 pound turret on it and call it Centurion. Never go half track.