Scotland in 867: From Pictland to Alba

[vyshan]

awesome post.

Britan and Ireland is actually what I been the most exicited about when the new start date was announced so this is cool. Though I am curious how paradox will pull scotland and ireland off since most of my information states that they were in a period of transformation from clans to kingdoms, but the kingdoms were not like the feudal kingdoms in the later centuries.

 

[HundredHander]

This is a great post, it is very tangled and there is lots of room for different points of view but these are the bits of the jigsaw.

The recent Norman Stone book, Vanished Kingdoms, has a good chapter exploring Alt Clud and it's relationships with the little kingdoms around it.

Anyone enjoying the short summary in this thread would almost certainly enjoy the whole book but especially its first chapter.

 

[Hibernian]

Ok, so going by what Innse Gall has said, here's a map of Scotland's cultures at the time.



The colours represent the cultures of the provinces and the smaller circles represent the culture of the ruling nobles. Though I haven't included a Norse-Gael culture and in some cases Innse Gall has said there are multiple cultures in each country, so I just have to pick one. What do you guys think about this?

Oh BTW, what should "Gaelic" actually be called in-game, because it's more of a generic term, do we actually just mean Irish, since a separate Scottish cultures didn't exist yet, or should the Gaels in Scotland just be called "Scottish".

 

[RustyTurban]

Maybe keep it Gael and then have a melting pot event later between Gaels and Picts to make Scottish? That way if the Saxon and Briton lands are conquered they will change culture by random event to Scottish. It would most likely need to be a simplification.

 

[unmerged(370476)]

Thanks again for the kind comments folks, I'm glad to see there's an interest in the subject. The period is earlier than that which I'm used to working with, but it is a certainly fascinating time Northern European history.

One thing that I think will be useful in this discussion is to post more extracts from the Chronicles and other Annalistic sources. Considering how little primary information exists, it's not a whole lot of trouble to delve in and pull out the relevant sections. I'll begin with records referring to the Norse, from about 800 - a few years after 867. That gives a pretty decent span prior to the 867 start date, and should give a pretty decent overview of the general 'flow' of their incursions and settlement at this time. Also I'll be using Annal dates, which as I mentioned earlier are slightly off.

For now, here's the Annals of Ulster:

*edit* I should add, since sometimes I take these things for granted, Foreigners in the context of the Irish Annals refer to the Norse, either Norwegians, Danes, etc. Sometimes the word Gentiles is used in its place. Later on the same terms are sometimes used to refer to the Anglo-Normans and later English, but that's beyond the current scope.

*edit x2* The chronicles only record what the particular chronicler/compiler was interested in, so in the case of the Annals of Ulster, Ulster is of primary import, then the rest of Ireland, then Scotland, then the rest of Britain. I'm also going to skip 'devastations' where no party is mentioned.

AD 793 ... Devastation of all the islands of Britain by Gentiles.

AD 794 ... The burning of Rechra by Gentiles and Sci was pillaged and wasted. (Sci refers to the Isle of Skye in the Hebrides)

AD 797 ... Burning of Inis-Patraic by Gentiles. (This may refer to either St. Patrick's Island, County Dublin, or Peel in the Isle of Man, sometimes known as Insula Patricii).

AD 801 ... I-Coluim-Cille was burned by Gentiles. (Iona, burial place of the Pictish and early Scottish Kings, Hebrides)

AD 805 ... The 'family' of Ia slain by Gentiles, that is, [to the number of] sixty-eight.

AD 806 ... Gentiles burned Inis-Muiredaigh (Inishmurray, Sligo) and invaded Ros-Comain. (Roscommon)

AD 810 ... A slaughter of Gentiles by the Ulidians. (Ulstermen)

AD 811 ... A slaughter of Gentiles by the men of Umhall (A district in County Mayo). A slaughter of the Conmaicni (Connemarra, County Galway) by Gentiles ... A slaughter of Gentiles by Munstermen, i.e. by Cobthach son of Maelduin, King of Loch-Lein. (King of West Munster).

AD 812 ... A slaughter of [the men of Umhall] by Gentiles (see previous entry for what likely instigated this retaliation) in which were slain Coscrach son of Flandabrat, and Dunadach, King of Umhall).

AD 820 ... Plundering of Etar (peninsula north-east of Dublin) by Gentiles; a great prey of women being taken therefrom.

AD 822 ... The Gentiles invaded Bennchair the Great (Bangor, County Down).

AD 823 ... The plundering of Bennchair in the Ards (Bangor), by Foreigners, and the spoiling of its oratory ... Etgal of Scelig (Island of Great Skellig, County Kerry) was carried off by Gentiles, and died soon after of hunger and thirst.

AD 824 ... Plundering of Dun-lethglaise by Gentiles (Downpatrick). Burning of Magh-Bile, with its oratories, by Gentiles. A victory in Magh-innis by Ulidians over Gentiles, in which a great many were slain. A victory over the Osraighi by Gentiles ... Plundering of Inis-Daimhle (Near Waterford). Martyrdom of Blathmacc son of Flann, by Gentiles, in I-Coluim-Cille. (Iona)

AD 826 ... The plundering and burning of Lusca by Gentiles; and the devastagion of Cianachta as far as Uactar-Ugan; and the plundering of all the Foreigners of the East ... Destruction of the camp of the Leinstermen by Gentiles, where Conall son of Cuchongalt, King of the Fortuatha, and others innumerable, were slain.

AD 827 ... A great slaughter of sea-hogs on the coast of Ard-Cianachta (County Louth) by Foreigners; and the martyrdom of Temhen, anchorite. The killing of Cinaedh, son of Cumuscach, King of Ard-Cianachta, by Foreigners; and the burning of Lann-leire (Dunleer, County Louth) and Cluain-mor, by foreigners. A battle was gained by Lethlabhar son of Loingsech, King of Dal-Araidhe, over Gentiles. Another battle was gained over Gentiles by Coirpri, son of Cathal, King of Ui-Cennselaigh, and the 'family' of Tech-Munnu.

AD 830 ... The plundering of the Conailli by Gentiles; and their King Maelbrighte, and his brother Canannan, were taken captive, and carried off in ships. A battle was gained in Aighnecha, by Gentiles, over the 'family' of Ard-Macha, great numbers of whom were taken captive.

AD 831 The first plundering of Ard-Macha by Gentiles, thrice in one month ... The plundering of Damliag, and the territory of the Cianachta with its churches, by Gentiles. Capture of Ailill, son of Colgu, by Gentiles. Tuathal son of Feradhach, was carried off by Gentiles, and the shrine of Adamnan, from Domnach-Maghen. Plundering of Rath-Luraigh (County Londonderry) and Connmere by Gentiles.

AD 832 A victory Niall and Murchadh over the foreigners in Daire-Chalgaidh (Londonderry). The plundering of Cluain-Dolcain (Clondalkin, near Dublin) by Gentiles. ... Burning of Druim-Inasclaind by Gentiles (Dromiskin, Louth). The plundering of Loch-Bricerna (County Down) against Congalach, son of Echaid, who was afterwards killed [by the foreigners] at their ships.

AD 833 A battle was gained over the Gentiles by Dunadhach, son of Scannlan King of the Ui Fidgenti (County Limerick) where many were slain. The plundering of Slane and Finnabhair-abha (Fennor) by Gentiles.

AD 834 The plundering o Ferna, and of Cluainmor-Moedhic, by Gentiles ... Burning of Mungairit, and other churches of Ormond by Gentiles. The plundering of Druim hing by Foreigners.

AD 835 ... The first prey taken by Gentiles from the South of Bregh, i.e. from Telcha-Droman, and from Dermagh of the Britons; and they carried off several captives, and killed a great many ... Most cruel devastation, by Gentiles, of all the territories of Connaught. A battle-slaughter upon the Northern Deisi by Gentiles.

AD 836 ... A fleet of three score ships of the Norsemen upon the Boyne. Another fleet of three Score ships on the Abhainn-Liphe (Liffey). These two fleets afterwards plundered Magh-Liphe and Magh-Bregh, between churches, and forts, and houses. A victory by the men of Bregh, over the Foreigners at Deoninne in Mughdorna-Bregh, when six scores of them were slain. A battle by Foreigners at Inbher-na-mbarc, over the Ui-Neill from the Sinainn (Shannon) to the sea where a slaughter was made that has not been reckoned, but the chief Kings escaped. Burning of Inis-Celtra by Gentiles. All the churches of Loch-Erne, together with Cluan-Eois and Daimhinis, were destroyed by Gentiles ... The killing of Saxolbh (Saxulf) chief of the foreigners, by the Cianachta.

AD 837 ... A battle by Gentiles over the Connaughtmen, in which Maelduin son of Muirghes, and many others were slain.

AD 838 ... An expedition of Foreigners on Locg-Echadh (Lough Neagh) from which they destroyed the territories and churches of the North of Ireland. A battle by Gentiles over the men of Fortrenn (Fortriu) in which fell Euganan son of Oengus, and Bran son og Oengus, and Aedh son of Boant, and almost countless others were slain. The burning of Ferna, and of Corcach-mor (Cork) by Gentiles.

AD 839 The plundering of Lughmadh from Loch-Echach, by Gentiles, who led captive bishops and presbyters, and wise men, and put others to death.

AD 840 Gentiles on Loch-Echach still. A fortress at Linn-Duachaill (Likely Dundalk) from which the territories of Tethba were plundered. A fortress at Dubhlinn from which Leinster and the Ui-Neill were plundered, both territories and churches, as far as Sliabh-Bladma.(***Very important entry, this is the first time the Irish chronicles mention the Norse erecting fortifications in Ireland, this is usually taken by historians to indicate that Norse settlement was well underway by this point and that the chroniclers needed to recognise it as a reality)

AD 841 Gentiles on Dublin still ... Maelduin son of Conall, King of Calatruim, was taken prisoner by Gentiles. The plundering of Cluain-mic-Nois by Gentiles from Linn-Duachail. The plundering of Biror and Saighir by Gentiles from Dubhlinn. A fleet of Norsemen on the Boyne, at Linn-Rois. Another fleet of Norsemen at Linn-sailech in Ulster. Moran, son of Indrechtach, abbot of Clochar-mac-n-Daimeni was taken prisoner by the Foreigners of Linn, and afterwards died with them. Comman, abbot of Linn-Duachail, was wounded and burned by Gentiles and Goidhel. The plundering of Disert-Diarmata, by Gentiles from Caeluisce.

AD 843 Maelmithigh, son of Cinaedh, was slain by Gentiles ... Burning of Cluain-ferta-Brendain, by Gentiles from Loch-Ri.

AD 844 Forindan, abbot of Ard-Macha was taken prisoner by Gentiles in Cluain-comarda, with his reliquaries and his 'family' and carried off by the ships of Luimnech (Limerick). The plundering of Dun-Masc by Gentiles, wherein was slain Aedh son of Dubhdacrich, abbot of Tir-da-glas (Terryglass) and Cluain-Eidhnigh, and wherein were slain Ceithernach son of Cudinaisc, vice abbot of Cille-dara, and several others. A host of the Foreigners on Loch-Ri, so that they destroyed Connaught and Midhe and burned Cluain-mic-Nois, with its oratories, and Cluain-ferta-Brendainn, and Tir-da-glas, and Lothra, and other establishments ... A battle was gained over the Gentiles by Niall son of Aedh in Magh-Itha ... An encampment of the Foreigners of Ath-cliath (Dublin) at Cluana-andobair.

AD 845 ... The plundering of Baislic by Gentiles ... A battle won over the Connaughtmen, by Foreigners, in which Rigan son of Fergus, and Moghron son of Diarmait, and Aedh son of Cathranach and a great many others were slain.

AD 847 A battle [gained] by Maelsechnail over Foreigners in Forach (Farragh, County Meath), wherein seven hundred were slain. A battle gained by Olchobar, King of Munster, and by Lorcan, son of Cellach, with the Leinstermen, over the Foreigners at Sciath-Nechtain in which Tomrair Erell, tanist of the King of Lochlann, and twelve hundred along with him were slain. A victory by Tighernach over the Gentiles in Daire-Disirt-Dochona in which twelve hundred were slain. A victory by the Eoghanacht-Caisil over the Gentiles, at Dun-Maeletuile, in which five hundred were slain. (This was a remarkably good year for the Irish)

AD 848 ...A naval expedition of seven score ships of the people of the King of the Foreigners came to exercise power over the Foreigners who were before them, so that they disturbed all Ireland afterwards.

AD 849 ... Cinaedh, son of Conaig, King of Cianachta, turned against Maelsechnaill through the assistance of the Foreigners, so that he wasted the Ui-Neill, both churches and districts, from the Sinain to the sea, and treacherously destroyed the island of Loch Gabhar so that it was level with the surface, and the oratory of Treoit was burned by him, and 260 men in it. (This Maelsechnaill was High King of Ireland at the time).

AD 850 Cinaedh son of Conaing, King of Cianachta was drowned in a pool, a cruel death by Maelsechnaill and Tigernach, with the approval of the good men of Ireland, and of the successor of Patrick especially (i.e. the same Conaing from the previous entry) ... The coming of black foreigners to Ath-Cliath (Dunlin) who made a great slaughter of the white foreigners, and they plundered the fortress between people and property. A depredation by the black foreigners at Linn-Duachail, and a great slaughter of them [the white foreigners] ... Echu son of Cernach, King of Fera-Rois, was slain by Gentiles.

AD 851 Devastation of Ard-macha by the Foreigners of Linn on the day of Snamh-aignech. They were three days and three nights fighting, but the Black Gentiles were successful that the others left their ships with them. Stain escaped by flight and Iercne was beheaded ... A slaughter of the Foreigners at the islands of the east of Bregha, and another slaughter at Rath-Aldain in Cianachta, in the same month.

AD 852 Amhlaim son of the King of Lochlaind, came to Ireland, when the Foreigners of Ireland submitted to him, and a tribute was given to him by the Gaidhel ... Cathmal son of Tomaltach, half-king of Ulidia, was slain by the Norsemen

AD 855 ... A great war between the Gentiles and Maelsechnaill, with whom were the Gall-Gaidel. The oratory of Lusca was burned by the Norsemen. A great victory by Aedh, son of Niall, over the Gall-Gaidel in Glenn-Foichle (Glenelly) where a great slaughter was made of them by him. Horm, leader of the Black Gentiles was slain by Ruadhri son of Merminn, King of Britain.

AD 856 A victory by Imar an Amlaibh over Caittil Find with his Gall-Gaidhel in the territories of Munster.

AD 858 ... A great hosting by Amlaibh and Imar and Cerbhall into Meath ... Maelgualai, King of Munster was slain by the Norsemen.

AD 860 ... Plundering of Meath by Aedh son of Niall with Foreigners.

AD 861 ... A hosting by Aedh son of Niall with the Kings of the Foreigners into Meath, and by Flann son of Conaing, to plunder Meath.

AD 862 ... Murecan, son of Diarmait, King of Nas, and of Airther-Liphe, was slain by Norsemen. The cave of Achadh-Aldai (possibly Newgrange) and the cave of Cnodbha and the cave of Fert-Boadan over Dubadh and the cave of the smith's wife were searched by the Foreigners, which had not been done before, viz, on the occasion when three Kings of the Foreigners plundered the land of Flann son of Connaig, to wit, Amhlaim, and Imhar, and Auisle; and Lorcan son of Cathal, King of Meath, was with them thereat.

AD 863 Conchobar son of Donnchadh, half-King of Meath, was killed in a water at Cluain-Iraid (Clonard) by Amlaibh, King of the Foreigners.

AD 865 Amlaiph and Auisle went into Fortrenn (Pictland, Fortriu), with the Foreigners of Ireland and Alba, when they plundered all Pictland, and brought away their pledges. ... Aedh, son of Niall, plundered all the fortresses of the Foreigners on the coast of Fochla, between Cinel-Eogain and Dal-Araide, so that he carried off their spoils, and their flocks and herds, to his camp after a battle. A victory was gained over the Foreigners at Locg-Febhail from which twelve score heads were brought. Loch-Leibhinn was turned into blood, which became lumps of gore like lights (as in the lights, or lungs, of Animals) round its border.

AD 866 Auisle, third King of the Foreigners, was killed by his brethren in guile and parricide. Abattle was gained over the Northern Saxons in Caer-Ebroc by the Black Foreigners, in which Alli, King of the Northern Saxons was slain. Burning of Dun-Amhlaim at Cluan-Dolcain by the son of Gaithlin and by Maelciarain son of Ronan and a slaughter of one hundred heads of the chiefs of the foreigners was made on the same day by the said chieftains in the vicinity of Cluain-Dolcain.

AD 867 A battle was gained by Aedh son of Niall (High King of Ireland) over the Ui-Neill of Bregh, and over the Leinstermen, and over a great host of Foreigners - viz three hundred or more, in which fell Flann son of Conaing, King of all Bregh, and Diarmait son of Etirscel, King of Loch-gabhor; and in this battle a great number of Foreigners were slaughtered, and Fachtna son of Maelduin, royal heir of the North and many others fell in the mutual wounding of the battle.

AD 868 Maelciarain son of Ronan, champion of the east of Ireland, a hero plunderer of the foreigners was slain (sounds like a cool dude) ... The plundering of Ard-Macha by Amlaibh, when it was burned, with its oratories. Ten hundred persons were lost btween the captives and the slain; and a great depredation besides was committed.

AD 869 Siege of Ail-Cluathe (Alt Clut) by Norsemen, viz, Amlaibh and Imhar, two Kings of the Norsemen besieged it, and at the end of four months destroyed and plundered the fortress.

AD 870 Amhlaibh and Imhar came again to Ath-cliath (Dublin) from Alba with two hundred ships; and a great multitude of men, English, Britons, and Picts, were brought by them to Ireland, in Captivity. The taking of Dun-Sobhairce (Dunseverick) which had not been done before. Foreigners were at it with the Cinil-Eoghain. Ailill son of Dunlaing, King of the Leinstermen, was slain by the Norsemen.

************

*Edit* There we go, finished!

 

[RustyTurban]

Thanks for this. It's an interesting read

 

[vyshan]

I am curious if the various people of scotland practied fostering? Right now in the game it is nearly impossible to do this, but it should be encourged by gaelic people to have their sons and daughters fostered by other people, such as their wife's brother.

 

[riadach]

I'm also going to skip 'devastations' where no party is mentioned.

When reading the original, sometimes it's easy to tell who the perpetrators are by the language used. Indred, especially in the initial period, seems to refer to harrying (i.e. plundering and burning) which was a modus operandi peculiar to the Norse at this stage. So even without perpetrators name, it could be used as a handy indicator.

 

[riadach]

I am curious if the various people of scotland practied fostering? Right now in the game it is nearly impossible to do this, but it should be encourged by gaelic people to have their sons and daughters fostered by other people, such as their wife's brother.

Fostering was political though. Fostering was used to reinforce ties between different polities during the period. Likewise, gossipred seems to have had an important role in binding families.

 

[unmerged(370476)]

This is a great post, it is very tangled and there is lots of room for different points of view but these are the bits of the jigsaw.

The recent Norman Stone book, Vanished Kingdoms, has a good chapter exploring Alt Clud and it's relationships with the little kingdoms around it.

Anyone enjoying the short summary in this thread would almost certainly enjoy the whole book but especially its first chapter.

I haven't read it yet, but it'll go on my 'wish list.' Seems like it would be an interesting read.

Ok, so going by what Innse Gall has said, here's a map of Scotland's cultures at the time.



The colours represent the cultures of the provinces and the smaller circles represent the culture of the ruling nobles. Though I haven't included a Norse-Gael culture and in some cases Innse Gall has said there are multiple cultures in each country, so I just have to pick one. What do you guys think about this?

Oh BTW, what should "Gaelic" actually be called in-game, because it's more of a generic term, do we actually just mean Irish, since a separate Scottish cultures didn't exist yet, or should the Gaels in Scotland just be called "Scottish".

Superb work Hibernian, great to have a visual representation.

Personally I prefer the term Gaelic, it's how they described themselves in both lands, and it is derived from the mythological founder of their people, Goidel Glas. As you correctly point out, the cultures in Ireland and Scotland hadn't yet diverged to a hugely significant degree (one of the forces that propelled change was indeed the arrival of the Norse). Though his study begins at a later date, I'd highly recommend Wilson McLeod's Divided Gaels: Gaelic Cultural Identities in Scotland and Ireland c. 1200 - c. 1650, tons of great information and discussion for anyone interested in Gaelic cultures during this time period.

Maybe keep it Gael and then have a melting pot event later between Gaels and Picts to make Scottish? That way if the Saxon and Briton lands are conquered they will change culture by random event to Scottish. It would most likely need to be a simplification.

This is a tough one, especially since our concept of cultural identity in the middle ages is still evolving. Gaelic expanded until sometime between 1200-1400 when it began to retract, and 'Scottish' greatly depends on what we consider it to represent in CK II terms. In this case, I think Gaelic would represent the culturally 'Celtic (for lack of a better word)' beliefs of the nobility, Donald III of Scotland being the last King to exemplify this state of affairs. Scottish would represent the increased Scoto-Norman and "Engish" influence that altered the culture of Scotland. Then again, without a Norman invasion this process would have been radically different.

I guess if it was an event that only fired after 1066, and could be declined, I can see it being a great fit.

 

[unmerged(370476)]

I am curious if the various people of scotland practied fostering? Right now in the game it is nearly impossible to do this, but it should be encourged by gaelic people to have their sons and daughters fostered by other people, such as their wife's brother.

It was actively practiced in the highlands right up until the late 16th, early 17th century when it began to decline. I agree completely that making it more widely available to the Gaels would be an excellent way of increasing immersion and accuracy for people playing Gaelic characters. One last survival is from the Battle of Inverkeithing in 1651. Since it'll take me forever to find the original source (sooo many papers!), I'm just going to quote from the scotsclans website:

"On the 20th of July 1651 The Royalists and Oliver Cromwell’s troops battled resulting in five hundred of the followers of the Laird of Maclean being slain.

In the heat of the conflict, seven brothers of the clan sacrificed their lives in defence of their leader, Sir Hector Maclean. Being hard pressed by the enemy, he was supported and covered from their attacks by these intrepid men; and as one brother fell, another came up in succession to cover for him, crying ‘Another for Hector’. The seven were traditionally Hector’s foster-brothers. But he too was killed in the battle, which was fought in 1648."

The MacLean losses were probably closer to 1/4 of that mentioned above, but it's used quite frequently by historians as an example of the classic "foster-brother" bond.

When reading the original, sometimes it's easy to tell who the perpetrators are by the language used. Indred, especially in the initial period, seems to refer to harrying (i.e. plundering and burning) which was a modus operandi peculiar to the Norse at this stage. So even without perpetrators name, it could be used as a handy indicator.

I agree completely . . . but I'm typing this all out by hand, and it's slow pecking when you have a book in one hand and you're typing with the other!

Fostering was political though. Fostering was used to reinforce ties between different polities during the period. Likewise, gossipred seems to have had an important role in binding families.

Excellent point, fostering is even used by some clans in Scotland to explain how they recieved portions of their lands (i.e. Chief so and so was fostered by X, X died with no heirs/hunting accident/heirs died in battle, so X left his land/ land and clan to his foster-son). While most of these are unlikely, the tales do at the very least help reflect the importance of fostering within Gaelic society.

 

[riadach]

I agree completely . . . but I'm typing this all out by hand, and it's slow pecking when you have a book in one hand and you're typing with the other!

Then this must be a holy grail for you!

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/irlpage.html

 

[vyshan]

Excellent point, fostering is even used by some clans in Scotland to explain how they recieved portions of their lands (i.e. Chief so and so was fostered by X, X died with no heirs/hunting accident/heirs died in battle, so X left his land/ land and clan to his foster-son). While most of these are unlikely, the tales do at the very least help reflect the importance of fostering within Gaelic society.

Ah, interesting, perhaps if you have a foster-son he gets a weak claim on your land? just an idea.

Though speaking of chieftians this makes me wonder, How will paradox repersent the fact that in scotland and in ireland, as well as other areas. They were in the midst of transforming from tribal society to kingdoms, even if said kingdom was not a feudal kingdom.

 

[riadach]

Superb work Hibernian, great to have a visual representation.

Personally I prefer the term Gaelic, it's how they described themselves in both lands, and it is derived from the mythological founder of their people, Goidel Glas. As you correctly point out, the cultures in Ireland and Scotland hadn't yet diverged to a hugely significant degree (one of the forces that propelled change was indeed the arrival of the Norse).

I'm not sure how this flies, because I'm not sure the word Gael translates Goídel in this period. It has modern connotations which transcend nationality as an ethnic subgroup of two different nationalities, with no necessary Irish or Scottish monopoly.. In this period, though, I think Ireland would have been considered the cultural locus of the Goídel, and Goídel living abroad were considered exiles. Furthermore, there was no real alternative word to refer to Irish people in common usage at this time.

Goídel is however derived from a Welsh word Gwyddel, the reference to Goídel glas is a later concoction.

 

[riadach]

Ah, interesting, perhaps if you have a foster-son he gets a weak claim on your land? just an idea.

I don't believe there is any justification for this though. Given the size of kingroups it would only be very rare that a someone would die without a relation who could inherit.

 

[spinoza013]

I was always told that Pictish names were just slowly replaced by Gaelic names because the picts used to trace their heritage through their mothers name. Because the early pictish Kings of Alba favoured gaelic culture this was thereason that gaelic patronyms took over.

 

[unmerged(370476)]

Then this must be a holy grail for you!

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/irlpage.html

It is a wonderful resource, I think I'm just old school in that I'd rather read it from a book. But thanks for posting the link, it's a fantastic compendium of information!

I'm not sure how this flies, because I'm not sure the word Gael translates Goídel in this period. It has modern connotations which transcend nationality as an ethnic subgroup of two different nationalities, with no necessary Irish or Scottish monopoly.. In this period, though, I think Ireland would have been considered the cultural locus of the Goídel, and Goídel living abroad were considered exiles. Furthermore, there was no real alternative word to refer to Irish people in common usage at this time.

Goídel is however derived from a Welsh word Gwyddel, the reference to Goídel glas is a later concoction.

Fair enough, and I suppose I should have made a distinction between where the word actually comes from versus where the people believed it came from at the time. You are entirely correct, though I would quibble with the "Goídel living abroad were considered exiles." The Gaels in Scotland were considered exiles by the Gaels in Ireland, though the Gaels in Scotland did not consider themselves to be so (with the exception of the odd wistful poet).

 

[riadach]

It is a wonderful resource, I think I'm just old school in that I'd rather read it from a book. But thanks for posting the link, it's a fantastic compendium of information!

Well, just for copying and pasting at least.

Fair enough, and I suppose I should have made a distinction between where the word actually comes from versus where the people believed it came from at the time. You are entirely correct, though I would quibble with the "Goídel living abroad were considered exiles." The Gaels in Scotland were considered exiles by the Gaels in Ireland, though the Gaels in Scotland did not consider themselves to be so (with the exception of the odd wistful poet).

Well, these odd poets are often the own insight we have into Scottish Gaelic views in the later medieval period. Obviously these views are going to be very much influenced by the fact that Irish poets dominated bardic poetry and bardic poetry schools, but that also says a lot about the cultural relationship between the two populations of Gaels which is very reminiscent of an exiles or colonists relationship with the home culture.

 

[unmerged(370476)]

Well, these odd poets are often the own insight we have into Scottish Gaelic views in the later medieval period. Obviously these views are going to be very much influenced by the fact that Irish poets dominated bardic poetry and bardic poetry schools, but that also says a lot about the cultural relationship between the two populations of Gaels which is very reminiscent of an exiles or colonists relationship with the home culture.

Hehe, you made me get up and start pulling volumes from my bookshelf, for shame!

As you mentioned, the Filidh were classically trained, and their work was firmly restrained in term of form, content, and even imagery used. What makes their poetry so complex and fascinating is how they were able to work within these constraints to create such a vast array of literature. Educational biases of the Filidh notwithstanding, when examining exile culture it's important to see whether the works composed for their Scottish patrons have a sense of place, or belonging within Scotland itself. While the exile mentality practically screams from the Gaelic Poetry of say 19th century Cape Breton, when it does appear in Scottish Gaelic literature in the medieval period, it's usually a lot more subtle.

While not an example of Gaelic literature, I'm going to quote from the Canadian Boat Song c. 1830:

From the lone shieling of the misty island
Mountains divide us, and the waste of seas —
Yet still the blood is strong, the heart is Highland,
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides:

Fair these broad meads — these hoary woods are grand;
But we are exiles from our fathers' land.

This would be a pretty clear cut example of "an exile's or colonists relationship with the home culture." The closest the author comes to identification with Canada is, to paraphrase "well, at least the trees are pretty nice."

What's notable about Scottish Gaelic literary development is that is has a strong sense of place. Even the Ossianic Tales (Not referring to MacPherson's Ossian, to be clear) were quickly localized to make Fionn mac Cumhaill and the Fianna Scottish. While the tales have evolved and we can trace many of the root tales back to their origin in Ireland, for a true exiled culture there would have been no need to Naturalise the mythological figures from their Heroic tradition. While it is true that there is Scottish Gaelic literature that place the references in Ireland, these come from the classically trained Filidh. The Book of the Dean of Lismore contains some excellent examples of both.

A good example of this sense of place is the poem Maith an Chairt Ceanna na nGaoidheal (The Headship of the Gaels is Good Charter):

The headship of the Gaels is good charter,
whoever gets a grip of it;
now it has exalted the power of a people,
it is Scotland's richest right.

This poem is addressed to the Earl of Argyll towards the middle of end of the 16th century, and Wislson McLeod and Meg Batemen refer to it as "an outstanding example of bardic praise-poetry in the classical style." What's relevant to our discussion is the lack of Irish reference. There's of course reference to the Headship of the Gael being passed down from Mil Espania, but the Headship now rests solidly in a Scottish context. While sometimes synonyms of Ireland are used to describe Scotland, the term used here is "Monaidh" a term that is specifically Scottish in scope in terms of Bardic poetry. Later on the poet goes on to describe Campbell's Battle-dress, a place that in Irish bardic poetry is rife with allusions to Ireland, and those are absent here. We have numerous references to Campbell's territory, but also a Hauberk from Greece and a corselet from Norway. What we don't have is a traditional Irish allusion to say Ulster, or Tara that usually accompanies similar descriptions.

Here's another example, Ceannas Gaoidheal do Chlainn Cholla c. 1450 (The Supremacy of the Gaels for Clann Cholla):

The headship of Ireland and Scotland,
of the sunny regions,
is held by that host. bloody, sharp-bladed,
heroic, poet surrounded.

Eoin from Islay won the headship
of the whole kindred.

Once again we have a reference to the headship of the Gael, of Ireland ad Scotland, in the form of John of Islay, 4th Lord of the Isles. Not only that, but he's claiming headship of all the descendants of Colla Uais. It's typical poetic bluster, but certainly not that of a Colonial or Exiled mindset. According to the poet the centre of Gaeldom is Islay, embodied in a Hebridean. The poem goes on to trace his descent over a millennium back to Colla Uais (the Genealogy's not exactly what you would call correct , but that's neither here nor there). There are similar poems addressed to Collas descendants in Ireland, and they are just as solidly sure that the headship of the Gael rests with them.

That being said, I'll give an example of one of the 'Wistful poets' I alluded to earlier. That would be Alba gan Dion a nDiaidh Ailin (Scotland is Defenceless After Ailean) c. 1513. The poem mourns the death of two chiefs of Clann Raghnaill. While there are Scottish references, these are eclipsed since the poet is favourably contrasting these chiefs with Cú Chulainn, and the ensuing Ulster imagery it entails. This should not be surprising considering the poet was a MacMhuirich, and likely spent most of his young adulthood and early life training at an Irish Bardic school ... from the details in the poem I'd wager he spent a fair bit of time in Ulster.

 

[riadach]

This would be a pretty clear cut example of "an exile's or colonists relationship with the home culture." The closest the author comes to identification with Canada is, to paraphrase "well, at least the trees are pretty nice."

What's notable about Scottish Gaelic literary development is that is has a strong sense of place. Even the Ossianic Tales (Not referring to MacPherson's Ossian, to be clear) were quickly localized to make Fionn mac Cumhaill and the Fianna Scottish. While the tales have evolved and we can trace many of the root tales back to their origin in Ireland, for a true exiled culture there would have been no need to Naturalise the mythological figures from their Heroic tradition. While it is true that there is Scottish Gaelic literature that place the references in Ireland, these come from the classically trained Filidh. The Book of the Dean of Lismore contains some excellent examples of both.

But fenians may not be a great example, since Scotland was always a strong part of their poetry. Even in ostensibly Irish ossianic literature, Scotland is quite frequently mentioned.

A good example of this sense of place is the poem Maith an Chairt Ceanna na nGaoidheal (The Headship of the Gaels is Good Charter):



This poem is addressed to the Earl of Argyll towards the middle of end of the 16th century, and Wislson McLeod and Meg Batemen refer to it as "an outstanding example of bardic praise-poetry in the classical style." What's relevant to our discussion is the lack of Irish reference. There's of course reference to the Headship of the Gael being passed down from Mil Espania, but the Headship now rests solidly in a Scottish context. While sometimes synonyms of Ireland are used to describe Scotland, the term used here is "Monaidh" a term that is specifically Scottish in scope in terms of Bardic poetry. Later on the poet goes on to describe Campbell's Battle-dress, a place that in Irish bardic poetry is rife with allusions to Ireland, and those are absent here. We have numerous references to Campbell's territory, but also a Hauberk from Greece and a corselet from Norway. What we don't have is a traditional Irish allusion to say Ulster, or Tara that usually accompanies similar descriptions.

Well, I've read other examples of arming in Irish Bardic poetry (they're are about four true instances afterall), and references to Irish places aren't necessarily common. But Maith an Chairt does indeed mention Irish charactars, such as Fearghus, Oscar and Fionn when referencing these weapons and armour, which is fairly typical . Maith an Chairt is indeed a good example of what you describe, but I'm not sure it could be used to reflect Scots' tradition as a whole. It is, after all, mid-17th to late 17th century when the main division in Gaeldom had already occured. I had other poems and examples in mind when I used Bardic Poetry to give an idea of this Irish bias, giving it a toponymic or mythological focus point. For instance, in A Mheic Dhubhghaill Tuar Acáin, the patron, Donnchadh Carrach mac Ailein Mac Dubhghaill is described as "taistealach Cruachain", "gaisgeadh is eineach Éireann" "the prowess and the honour of Ireland". In another, Alba gan díon a ndiaigh Ailín, the patron is compared to Cú Chulainn, and the latter's exploits in Ulster are recounted. In Bí id mhosgaladh a mhic Aonghuis, Seamus Mac Domhnaill is even enjoined to invade Ireland, and the poem itself is rich with geographical references of the place, the Boyne, the plain of Breagha that seem to be designed to make the audience coo. It is written as though the high-kingship of Ireland should be a focus, an ideal for Scottish kings and shows the idea that they were constantly looking west with a vested interest.

Here's another example, Ceannas Gaoidheal do Chlainn Cholla c. 1450 (The Supremacy of the Gaels for Clann Cholla):



Once again we have a reference to the headship of the Gael, of Ireland ad Scotland, in the form of John of Islay, 4th Lord of the Isles. Not only that, but he's claiming headship of all the descendants of Colla Uais. It's typical poetic bluster, but certainly not that of a Colonial or Exiled mindset. According to the poet the centre of Gaeldom is Islay, embodied in a Hebridean. The poem goes on to trace his descent over a millennium back to Colla Uais (the Genealogy's not exactly what you would call correct , but that's neither here nor there). There are similar poems addressed to Collas descendants in Ireland, and they are just as solidly sure that the headship of the Gael rests with them.

You would probably have to address the fact what John of Islay would try and assert his genealogy through Colla Uais in the first place. As far as I'm aware, Somhairle dna may contradict any actual connection to Colla Uais himself. But the fact that Ireland is mentioned, is still given it a central ideological significance in Scottish identity. I don't recall many of Collas descendants in Ireland needing to emphasise their patrons position in Scotland. It is an afterthought, an insignificance. Yet not so Ireland in the mind of John. The Irish link is (most like fraudulent), but it is prestigious. The very idea that such genealogies were forged with characters dating much later than any actual or even mythological migration is further indication that Ireland was viewed with much prestige and dominated the cultural relationship in a manner I find truly reminiscent of how colonial cultures view their home cultures today.

That being said, I'll give an example of one of the 'Wistful poets' I alluded to earlier. That would be Alba gan Dion a nDiaidh Ailin (Scotland is Defenceless After Ailean) c. 1513. The poem mourns the death of two chiefs of Clann Raghnaill. While there are Scottish references, these are eclipsed since the poet is favourably contrasting these chiefs with Cú Chulainn, and the ensuing Ulster imagery it entails. This should not be surprising considering the poet was a MacMhuirich, and likely spent most of his young adulthood and early life training at an Irish Bardic school ... from the details in the poem I'd wager he spent a fair bit of time in Ulster.

You say it like it was unusual. Ar sliocht Gaodhal o ghort Greag for Giolla Easbuig Caimbeul references the Battle of Moytura. A poem to Giolla Easbuig Mac Eoin, Clú a oirbheart uaisligheas neach , references a boyhood tale of Fintan, replete with fintan's historical background. Cumha ceathrair do mheasg me references Oidheadh Chloinne Uisnigh. In fact, as I look through, I find it hard to see apologues in Scottish bardic poetry that reference something peculiarly Scottish (though I've only looked through about half of 115 of them). This in itself tells us an awful lot.