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Colonel
Feb 10, 2004
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Now a small concern of mine about the forth-coming HOI2: Only historic major players will be able to be major players.

Now as the founder of the Ahistoric Association (See my sig for the link and more info) it is excactly the opposite from my ideal. My ideal being that every country can perform freely within some boundaries, boundaries that are not set by our history, but by realities of time and other resources.

Now of course the betas will find companies in Switzerland that can be hypotethically given the task of creating tank technologies... But what about Nepal? Nepal having, at least to my understanding, no industry at that time being. What happens if it annexes Tibet and other minor powers and suddendly becomes huge? What happens when Norway becomes the largest European power trying to research nuclear weapons and aircraft carriers?

Now the answer set by other Paradox games is the birth of the "Default Joe". In EUII no nation gained leaders except those of our history. It did not matter if Navarra owned half of Europe, it could not get a decent general after the year, in which in our history the nation got annexed. Instead the "Default Joe", the "no leader" was existant.

In Victoria the system was a bit better with some random leaders. About HOI I do not know, it seems some semi-random leaders are present.


But what I wish to see is completely random research teams. You push the magic button of "Generate" and BANG you get a reasearch with random specialities and random skills. And with random I mean random. Not just a variation between skill 7 and 8.

And leaders! Just have leaders starting from the bottom of the barrel (Majors?) and build up towards General. Their names are indifferent to me, heck for me they can even be numbers. Afterall they will be renameable, right? But they will too have random skills.

Now it would seem most profitable to have the "money" on which these will be purchased, that of leadershippoints and not of "actual money", or maybe the combination of those two? And perhaps a time limit so that one can not purchase 22 scientist groups in a second and disband those that he does not like.

So for the price of two divisions one can buy a scientist group or a leader. This action can take place once every month. (This makes it 1936-1947 144 months, and thus 144 possible new leaders and scientist groups.)


Of course I also do hear the concerns of those who wish to see a somewhat more historic game. And as such this whole possibility should be an option for the game. I would most rather if it was all clustered up with the package "History=On/Off" along with forced history events, forced history AIs and the like.


Just voicing out my, and the Association`s concerns, I am. :)
 
Apr 13, 2001
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I like your idea. The vicky system for generating leaders is better imo than having a set of generals like HoI or EU. The randomness and compromises you are forced to make adds to the gaming experience. Also the most famous generals are in vicky, its just the "default joe" as you call it, that are generated.
 

J.J.E.

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As usual, Idealist, I disagree with you. :)


I have said before that I don't want a history book game. I do, however, want a realistic WW2 game, where I can fight the war the way I want with deviances happening now and then. I do want generals like Rommel, Patton, Zhukov, De Gaulle etc. to be in the game. Otherwise, where's the WW2? If your changes are implemented, and Norway is a superpower, this wouldn't be a game set to be about WW2. It could just as well be set in 1967 or 1743 and be a civ-like "free for all" game!

I want a realistc (NOT following the historical path all the time, keep that in mind!) WW2 game, with a WW2 fought with generals I know.

I don't want to see Italy suddenly having the best leaders possible, or Finland with skill 6 generals because of a random generator.
 

unmerged(25612)

Colonel
Feb 10, 2004
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J.J.E. said:
As usual, Idealist, I disagree with you. :)


I have said before that I don't want a history book game. I do, however, want a realistic WW2 game, where I can fight the war the way I want with deviances happening now and then. I do want generals like Rommel, Patton, Zhukov, De Gaulle etc. to be in the game. Otherwise, where's the WW2? If your changes are implemented, and Norway is a superpower, this wouldn't be a game set to be about WW2. It could just as well be set in 1967 or 1743 and be a civ-like "free for all" game!

I want a realistc (NOT following the historical path all the time, keep that in mind!) WW2 game, with a WW2 fought with generals I know.

I don't want to see Italy suddenly having the best leaders possible, or Finland with skill 6 generals because of a random generator.


Would not that post quite agree with me, as long as it is an option that can be turned off?

And I also do endorse having historic leaders in the game, but in addition to them some random ones. It is plain ridiculous to have Sweden with one naval commander, when they are the second biggest participator in Barbarossa... Or no leaders for Argentina, albeit their leading role in fighting the Fascist Bolivia... I could go on and on...

Maybe follow the Vic style: All countries must generate leaders and tech groups, but those countreis who have historic ones, will generate them before random ones. (In Vic you had first real generals then random ones)???? Would not that be quite a compromise?
 

unmerged(25612)

Colonel
Feb 10, 2004
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Der Gott said:
What would it cost?

Now, that`s a hard question to ask for a non-beta. ;)

I can only assume that if an infantry division costs, say: 1000$, 5 steel, 5 food and 10 supplies, an HQ unit 1500$, 5 steel, 7 food, 12 supplies and 1 leadership point THEN a scientist group could be 5000$ and say 5 leadership points.

That is all to be balanced out, but the price should be high enough not to have each player just automatically create one and eventually disband the useless ones.
 

unmerged(18189)

Corporal
Jul 12, 2003
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To a certain point I can agree with idealist...after all some of the 'famous' commanders of WWII came to be famous just as a fluke of fate....

(please correct me if I'm wrong on this one) but wasn't Eisenhower a LtCol back in 1936, and got an accelerated career after being appointed Marshalls Cheif of Staff?

What I'm trying to say is that no commander will ever be famous/great if he (she) is never given the chance to prove himself to be better that the 'default Joe'
 
Mar 5, 2004
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J.J.E. said:
.., or Finland with skill 6 generals because of a random generator.

Damn right, there should be 20 generals with skill 12 each!
 

Earl Uhtred

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Don't presume to speak for all of us Great One :) I would hope that 'generic' teams cost a fortune had low overall quality. You can't just promote scientists out of the blue. Attracting Western talent would have been fantastically difficult for Nepal with or without Tibet.
 

unmerged(31131)

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Jun 26, 2004
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The only problem i have with this is that i love the world war II generals, and the fact that Russia would become the greatest power in the game, having good leaders and technology if they play their cards right, add that to their giant industry and you got the uber-power of the world.

I would like to see some random generals that would be created over time with maybe a "Start officer training" and then at the end of the year you have like 5 new officers in each category that will act like regular generals and have a skill of 1 to 3 and random trait. That way a nation like Austria could have a few navy officers if it is ever to build some ships.

That to me would be fair and simulate the other officers that could have risen up if given the chance. It would also simulate the fact that if a landlocked nation all the sudden acquired a port it would pursue a navy of some type.
 

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Again banginng the Drum of Ahistoric....As far as I know HOI one and two are sold as Strategic games 36 to 48 **warfare in our time***That means you start with the parameters set in 36 or earlier.You cannot change thjose parameters how you develop from there is your concern thus the divergence from true history.There is no twist of logic that can change the situation of 36 Nepal or justification for so doing.

This is a game based on a degree of reality and i for onne see no reason for it to be a developed scenario of something like Civ 3 were you can lead the Apaches to world domination.

If you want a game like that fantasy lets drop the word pseudo rationale of Ahistoric what you mean is Fantasy.then there arre others that cater to it games i mean .You also have the option of modding.I cant see why time and resources should be spent in development to basically change the rationale of the game and even change its whole direction.

So basically I disagree with your premise on various levels.

Oh and the turn off option sounds reasonable but it means duplicating effort and wasting development time.....as a add on possibly if and a big if there sufficiant demand to make it a financialy feasible.But that is not what I want out of the box now I want the best WW2 simulation that Paradox can make and I want there time spent on that.
 

Plutarch

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leo121 said:
after all some of the 'famous' commanders of WWII came to be famous just as a fluke of fate....

You're really treading into deep philosophical ground here. How can we look back on events and say that a particular choice was an A choice or a B choice (using HOI standards 85/15).

I think it is equally valid to say that many of those folks were ready when opportunity came along. They stepped up and worked hard at the right time. The made sacrifices and took chances. To say they were just "flukes" or to call them famous and put them in quotes seems to belittle their contributions.

As an example, I could call you a "contributor" and then proceed to talk about your so-called "intelligent post". Even though I didn't actually say anything bad about you, I've now added a certain amount of doubt into the situation.

I just think you're on shaky intellectual ground to take someone significant achievements and say "Well he didn't really do anything. He just got lucky." For sure there were a lot of great achievers who also had some some great flaws. But I wouldn't dismiss what they accomplished by saying that random chance made them that way.
 

unmerged(33077)

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Aug 11, 2004
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I don't like the idea at all. It changes the game from a WWII game to a generic simulator more akin to civ. If I wanted to play civ, I'd buy civ.

Idealist's example re. Nepal is also severely flawed. Yes Nepal has little to no idustrialization, and there is a reason for that. It's called the Industrial Revolution. To set up the industrial base he wants to have magically appear isn't plausible within the parameters of the game. You are suggesting that 200 years of industrial and scientific advancement can be made up in little more than a decade.

The history of the post-colonial world suggests that this would take much longer than the game allows for. Most of Africa and Asia have yet to catch up with the industrial and scientific base of their colonizers.
 

wwater

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idealist said:
Now of course the betas will find companies in Switzerland that can be hypotethically given the task of creating tank technologies... But what about Nepal? Nepal having, at least to my understanding, no industry at that time being. What happens if it annexes Tibet and other minor powers and suddendly becomes huge? What happens when Norway becomes the largest European power trying to research nuclear weapons and aircraft carriers?

It would of course greatly advance the game to a elevated level of fun. But I reckon this should actually be a MOD or scenario.

Take Norway for instance, as a Norwegian I sometimes play as Norway. Of course it is no fun playing the small kingdom of Norway, after all, I bet it is pretty dull to be a politican from Norway anyway. I much rather prefer Sweden, which has been more or less a great nation. :D
So it would be a freak accident if Norway suddenly took back the glory it had before the black plague (INT & WIS 25+ for Vidkun Quisling or some?). I reckon the only decent way to change history is to be able to play for instance Norway in Crusader Kings, import to EUII, then play on, import to Victoria (if you could) and later HoI (if you could).
 

unmerged(31881)

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Jul 13, 2004
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Crikeys. Holy Eurocentrism, Batman!
With enough money, industry, raw material, and manpower at its disposal...
Why would Nepal need to attract "Western" scientists for any progress?

But as to the leaders/generals- that can easily be altered.
Nepal starts on path to world domination in 1936... ten years later has made excellent progress.
But despite a decade of constant combat, overcoming all sorts of skilled enemies...
The generals are still the same backwater untalented lot as before.
With a few extra skill levels but no more character.

My TRADE 2 SKILL LEVELS FOR AN EXTRA TRAIT would be able to address this.

Thus - by dint of experience a general would be able become more well rounded if you so choose.
Gets rid of the random - Finnish generals almost all have Winter Specialist. Why? Luck of the draw?
No, obviously Finns developed that aspect of their military practice.
Whereas i'm not sure if the German High Command ever read even a single book devoted to winter warfare in Russia/Scandinavia.

Research should be like generals - NO NATION SPECIFIC TAGS.
If it happens - you accomplish something by dint of In Game Mechanics, then the limits of starting database should not hamper your newly founded empire.

Nepal would have higher calibre generals after a smashingly successful 10 year war to conquer the world. Even if they only conquered half or 10% of it.
Likewise its research teams shouldn't run into an invisible NonWestern or NonMajor glass ceiling. THAT is Fantasy.
That's my understanding of the gist here.
Make it so if you gamble on the longshot of Nepal... your payout shouldn't be limited only cuz you were dealt a weaker hand at the start.

The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong
 

boromir

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Oct 3, 2002
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The Vicky random leader generator? Please, no!
HOI2 is a WW2 simulation - and it should have the historical leaders present with more or less their historic abilities, just as in HOI.
 

unmerged(6105)

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boromir said:
The Vicky random leader generator? Please, no!
HOI2 is a WW2 simulation - and it should have the historical leaders present with more or less their historic abilities, just as in HOI.

But noone said they did not want the historical ones. Random leaders are just a addition to the ones present and they don't have to have some super skills, just be able to get better which the default can't. question is, what should be used to buy/get these leaders/scientists?
 

unmerged(25612)

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Feb 10, 2004
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Jkris said:
But noone said they did not want the historical ones. Random leaders are just a addition to the ones present and they don't have to have some super skills, just be able to get better which the default can't. question is, what should be used to buy/get these leaders/scientists?

Excactly!


Now to all of you stating your unwillingess for historically non-majors to be majors... What is your fear? That if Turkey actually did something, it might show?

Alrigth scrap Nepal, that was just an example out of the wind to give you the general idea of the game randomity, but as you failed to realize that, I must reason some more:

Turkey in 1936. Hardly a minor? Hardly without generals? Hardly without research teams? Now granted Paradox staff will come up with a potential candidate of a General from some sources, heck they may even introduce some semi-random ones... But so what? You attack and annex all of the Balkans, become the strongest lenk of the axis AND the big question: Should you only get that three or four ancient infantry-doctrine research teams?


For gods sake! HOI is not a colouring book of WWII!!! It is a game! And furhtermore in the words of Johan himself: "It is a game, not a simulation"


Why, just why should Turkey be judged by our history?!?!?! State one good reason why Turkey could not be taken into greatness...




And to make you all feel so special I will quote you each seperatetly:

Boromir: "HOI2 is a WW2 simulation" --- EEP! Wrong answer, you lost all your money. Straight quote from Johan "It is a game, not a simulation" ..... Or now, of course you know better than the leading proggrammer and game designer of the game... Of course... What was I thinking... :wacko:

Urban II: Yes when I said Nepal, I of course meant Nepal and not any other nation, and further more not at least those with several WCs made by (Mongolia...)... Woods, forest, seeing... Finish the phrase... :wacko:

Caligastro: What the in the name of the holy one does CIV have to do with this?!?!?! All I am asking is for consideration about the fact that HOI is a game, not WWII colouring book, and as such the whole environment of things can change, and that should logically lead into changing of these small things. I don`t want total randomity just possibilities of playing the game and having leaders without hardcodings.

Earl Uthred: Ahhh.. Sorry. :eek:o Well naturally some balancing could be done with the teams, not to have skill 10 nuclear, aeroplane, tank COMBOS each time.. True. Maybe limit their skills to 5-8 or something?



So please before you get stuck with the woods again, come and see the base idea of the forest:


In EUII you had Hungary waging war with Austria, annexing it, then losing the province with Vienna to Würtemberg a month before the magic date, Austria breaks free from Würtemberg and guess what happens?!?!?! Austria inherits all of Hungary!!!

Now I could go on and on and on and on with these examples. Hardcodings very, very seldomly work. And that is indeed because all of Paradox`s products are GAMES not simulations or colouring books.

This is what is the problem. In HOI2 you can conquer all of South-America with Argentina... And do you have any leaders to correspond that? No!


If a thing did not happen, it does not automatically mean it could have not happened!



AMEN! Jesus H Christ, I though I made this all somewhat clearer before. Now go ahead blame me, go on stick with the trees and fiddle around with that: "But hey LOL! CORE has two leaders for Argentina so they are no longer leaderless..." ... Go on stick with the trees, as you seem to have lost the picture of the forest...


(Sorry, I may have been offensive, but I was rather astounished and I am really really tired. So forgive me if I gave you little or no credit, and most of all: DO not take anything I said personally.)


Now the compromise of them all would be to have historic leaders generatable just as the random ones, so that when in 1939 Germany presses the "Magic button" then Rommel or something will pop up, instead of Billy2.

So if you fail to reason yourself with the "golden rules" of balance (I see no failure here, as Leaders would only be "sold" and not "randomly given".), Realism (IT WOULD HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE FOR TURKEY TO GET A DECENT GENERAL!!!) and costlyness (Copying some lines from Victoria and aletring them a bit... ?)


Or what is the "red line" of your thought that restricts all fighting of WWII to a fistfull of names and countries. (And as I said before this could be made into an option of the game, along with the whole package "History=On/off)