Scenario setup changes

[unmerged(21937)]

Not necessarily. People were as frisky then as they are now. Perhaps even earlier.

I don't think that it's right. Probably easiest just to make that Iestyn five years older, unless there is more accurate information available about it.

 

[Drachenfire]

Glamorgan!

Wait! The Deheubarth-Glamorgan-Gwent set up is incorrect!

Ive been studing the set up and based on research from John Davies "History of Wales" and I am trying to advocate correcting the situation, in

1066 Glamorgan:
was ruled by Cadwgan ap Meurig of dynasty Afen (change the dynasty name Meriadoc to Afen) of the ancient line of Glamorgan kings who retook Glamorgan in 1063. His chief seat was Afen (pronounced Aven) in Glamorgan. His decendents would take the name de Avene (of Afen) by the 14th century and were reduced to the rank of baron under the Anglo-Norman de Clare family, themselves Marcher lords that had wrestled Glamorgan from that dynasty. So the Meridoc dynasty should be renamed Afen, as their decendents would take the name of their chief citidal of Afen. If you wish to represent what really happened for the succession of Glamorgan, then Cadwgon should not have any children (reduce fertility, also make Glamorgan semisalic consangunity as the salic gavelkind wouldnt allow his cousins to inherit), thereby allowing Gwrgant and his son Iestyn to inherit Glamorgan in due corse, as they indeed did come to rule glamorgan in the 1070's.

Also there should be three leading church figures listed as courtiers here in Glamorgan with Herewald (of) Llancarfan (b. c. 1020, Saxon Catholic) as Bishop of Glamorgan from 1056 to 1140. He had two VERY important sons, Lifris Llancarfan (Welsh Catholic) who wrote The Life of St Cadog, and Steffan Llancarfan (Welsh Catholic) who wrote The Life of St Teilo. It is vital these three persons, father and sons, be represented in Glamorgan alongside Count Cadwgon ap Muerig Afen if any sence of legitimacy for Glamorgan is to be achieved. They should have church education and high steward and intrigue skills. They dynasty name Llancarfan should be created, with Herewald and his sons represented here as courtiers in Glamorgan.

1066 Gwent:

Gwrgant and his son Iestyn (Justin) and their family were in Gwent, but give Gwrgant claim on Glarmorgan. Gwent at this time was under the control of Caradog ap Gruffydd ap Rhydderch of Gwynllwg. This character Caradog ap Gruffydd should be created and be part of newly created dynasty Gwynllwg, and he should be count of Gwent. Also, move Gwrgant and his son Iestyn and their family to Gwent and make them courtiers there. Gwrgant should have a claim on Glamorgan as he is cousin to Cadwagon ap Meurig (of the newly named) Afen dynasty.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Ah, our resident Welsh expert. Can you lighten up the issue with 16-year old Iestyn (who apprently should be in Gwent then) having a 5-year old son? There must be something wrong there, no?

EDIT: I mean, are the children tagged to wrong father or are the ages wrong or what?

 

[Drachenfire]

Ah, our resident Welsh expert. Can you lighten up the issue with 16-year old Iestyn (who apprently should be in Gwent then) having a 5-year old son? There must be something wrong there, no?

EDIT: I mean, are the children tagged to wrong father or are the ages wrong or what?

hehe, thanx for the compliment.

The set up for Wales is a bit sloppy compared with other realms. Understandable I guess, as other regions might be a bit more popular. I am surprised anyone noticed the situation with Glamorgan actually, and there are others inconsistencies too!

I suspect that Iestyn should be older, and his sons credited to him- though can not vouch that all of those kiddies are indeed his. John Davies is silent on Iestyn's sons, insomuch as to say that Glamorgan was ruled by his decendents until the de Clare family wrestled it from them.

In later scenerios though, the Afen dynasty should be represented as courtiers in Glamorgan. But that is for a later correction.

Would anyone be willing to assist me in a complete revisit of Wales for all scenarios? Its not really that complicated, just some minor corrections really and looking up dynasty codes and the like. Maybe creating two new dynasties and such. I have the research material, but none of the coding expertise necessary for this thread. We could use a seperate thread for the corrections, then post them here for Phoenix to update.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

The whole point of gathering all scenario setup changes into one thread is that when I (or someone else skilled enough) gets around to doing scenario changes, they are nicely gathered in one place. So everything in this thread will be included in the next beta.

 

[Drachenfire]

The whole point of gathering all scenario setup changes into one thread is that when I (or someone else skilled enough) gets around to doing scenario changes, they are nicely gathered in one place. So everything in this thread will be included in the next beta.

hehe, thats good too! I only ment so as to not clutter the thread. But, I could list all the changes that I can see based off source material, but I cant seem to offer the code corrections that others here can.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

Has a definite conclusion been reached on the Gaelic matter?
(I'm itching to include it in the summary list, but want to be sure that I link to the right post)

 

[Ayeshteni]

Has a definite conclusion been reached on the Gaelic matter?
(I'm itching to include it in the summary list, but want to be sure that I link to the right post)

No definitive conclusion. But it seems the compromise candidate will be used.

I will make necessary alterations to bring 'the compromise candidate' up to a more 'accurate' model (basically adding Gaelic provinces to the scenarios, rather than my conservative one)

I will do that tomorrow. I think using Brian_Boruma's Gaelic lists might also be used.

Ayeshteni

 

[Ayeshteni]

Ooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaayyy!

I think this is it now (if it isn't just shout out).

Scenario setups
OK, 1066 set up done:

Provinces to be changed to 'irish' (Gaelic)
strathclyde c047
atholl c044
argyll c045
angus c043
buchan c041
mar c042
moray c040
ross c039
sutherland c038
cumberland c053 (from Norwegian)
galloway c050 (from Norwegian)
carrick c049 (from Norwegian)
fife c046

characters to be changed to 'irish' (Gaelic)
(ID number/current name/Tag/name should be changed to.../notes)
960/duncan/SCOT/Donnchad
962/crinan/ATHO
964/maldred/ATHO
972/donald/SCOT/Domnall
974/malcolm/SCOT/Máelcoluim
976/kenneth/SCOT/Cináed
978/duff/SCOT/Dubh
980/malcolm/SCOT/Máelcoluim
981/bethoc/ATHO
982/duncan/SCOT/Donnchad
984/malcolm/SCOT/Máelcoluim
986/donald/SCOT/Domnall
988/duncan/SCOT/Donnchad
990/malcolm/SCOT/Máelcoluim
992/donald/SCOT/Domnall
994/maelmuire/ATHO
5794/donald/SCOT/Domnall
5995/alice/ORKN/Alis
5996/macbeth/SCOT//I have kept it Macbeth rather than Macbethad
5997/donadona/ARGY
5998/findlaech/ARGY
5999/rhuadri/ARGY
6000/maelbridge/ARGY/Máelbrigte
6001/gruoch/SCOT
6002/gillecomgain/ARGY/Gillacáemgein
6003/boethe/SCOT
6004/kenneth/SCOT/Cináed
6005/sinill/C043
6006/lulach/SCOT
6007/fionghula/SCOT
6008/maelsnechtan/ARGY/Máelsnechtai
6009/gruaidh/ARGY
6010/aedh/ARGY
6012/angus/ARGY/Áengus
6014/malcolm/ARGY/Máelcoluim
20070/maldoven/C043/Mael Domnaich
20071/martachus/MARA
20075/gratnach/MARA
4070/hextilda/C043//wife of maldoven of angus, not a gaelic name and I am unsure of her heritage, may want just to keep her 'scottish'
4071/gruoch/MARA/Gruóch

1187 Scottish changes

1187 provinces file: provinces to be changed to 'irish' culture (Gaelic)
man c054
Argyll c045
moray c040
ross c039
sutherland c038
caithness c037
western isles c035
atholl c044
angus c043
buchan c041
mar c042
carrick c049

1187 character file: Characters to be changed to 'irish' (Gaelic) culture
(ID number/current name/Tag/name should be changed to.../notes)
2970/william/c038/Uilleam
2971/donald/c038/Domnall
2972/gruaidh/c038
2974/donald/c038/Domnall
2975/gillescop/c038
2976/alice/c038/Alis
3002/kenneth/c039/Cináed
3003/adam/c039
3009/angus/c045/Áengus
20019/reginald/WEIS
20026/ragnhildis/WEIS
20027/somerled/WEIS
20028/fiona/WEIS
20029/ragnhild/WEIS
20030/ruadri/WEIS
20031/donald/WEIS/Domnall
20032/dougal/WEIS/Donngal
20038/gornflaeth/ORKN//2nd wife of Jarl Harald
20039/alfreka/ORKN//1st wife of Jarl Harald

NB: Harald Dunkeld (!!) of Orkney and his children have been kept as 'Scottish'.

1337 Scottish changes:

1337 provinces file: provinces changed to 'irish' (Gaelic) culture:
man c054
moray c040
ross c039
sutherland c038
caithness c037
western isles c035
orkney c036
Argyll c045
carrick c049
atholl c044
angus c043
buchan c041

1337 character file: characters changed to 'irish' (Gaelic) culture.

20019/Eoin/WEIS
53054/Mary Og/C039
53055/Angus Og/WEIS
53056/Iain Og/WEIS

----------------------------------------

Altered event (Scottish melting pot)
Additional + modified Scottish melting pot events.

province_event = {
	id = 1090

	picture = "event_intrigue"

	trigger = {
		condition = { type = area value = 50 }#Scotland
		condition = { type = culture value = norwegian }
	}

	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 500

		modifier = {
			condition = { type = ruler_culture value = norwegian }
			factor = 3
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = ruler_culture value = scottish }
			factor = 0.5
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = ruler_culture value = irish }
			factor = 0.2
		}
	}

	action_a = {
		effect = { type = culture value = irish }
	}

}

province_event = {
	id = 9054

	picture = "event_intrigue"

	trigger = {
		condition = { type = area value = 50 }#Scotland
		condition = { type = culture value = irish }
	}

	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 1000

		modifier = {
			condition = { type = ruler_culture value = irish }
			factor = 4
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = ruler_culture value = scottish }
			factor = 0.8
		}
	}

	action_a = {
		effect = { type = culture value = scottish }
	}

}

---------------------------------------------------------

Gaelic name list (irish)

irish;female;Affraic
irish;female;Caitríona
irish;female;Cristina
irish;female;Dearbháil
irish;female;Dearbhorgaill
irish;female;Eithne
irish;female;Ete
irish;female;Fionnghuala
irish;female;Forbflaith
irish;female;Gormlaith
irish;female;Gruoch
irish;female;Isibél
irish;female;Máirghréad
irish;female;Mairsil
irish;female;Máel Muire
irish;female;Mór
irish;female;Muirgheal
irish;female;Raghnailt
irish;male;Áed
irish;male;Brian
irish;male;Cathal
irish;male;Cináed
irish;male;Cormac
irish;male;Cuilén
irish;male;Dauíd
irish;male;Donnchad
irish;male;Domnall
irish;male;Dúngal
irish;male;Eochaid
irish;male;Eogan
irish;male;Eoin
irish;male;Feargus
irish;male;Feradach
irish;male;Gilla Brigde
irish;male;Gilla Coluim
irish;male;Gilla Críst
irish;male;Gilla Pátraic
irish;male;Máel Brigde
irish;male;Máel Coluim
irish;male;Máel Dúin
irish;male;Máel Ísu
irish;male;Muiredach
irish;male;Nechtan
irish;male;Niall
irish;male;Padriag
irish;male;Ragnall
irish;male;Roibert
irish;male;Ruaidrí
irish;male;Séamus
irish;male;Somairle
irish;male;Toirrdelbach
irish;male;Uilliam

---------------------------------------

Dynasty name changes....

dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 197 }
name = "Ó Cárthaigh" #DUPLICATE OF 101725
province = { }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 198 }
name = "Ó Braenain"
province = { }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 199 }
name = "Ó Néill" province = { 004 010 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 200 }
name = "Mac Murchú" #DUPLICATE OF 551
province = { }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 201 }
name = "Ó Conchúir"
province = { }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 551 }
name = "Mac Murchú" #DUPLICATE OF 200
province = { }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 688 }
name = "Mac Ailpín"
province = { }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 690 }
name = "Ó Fáeláim"
province = { }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 691 }
name = "Ó Néill Mór"
province = { }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 692 }
name = "Mac Diarmada"
province = { }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 693 }
name = "Mac Máil na"
province = { }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 694 }
name = "Ó Tuathail"
province = { }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 695 }
name = "Ó Briain"
province = { }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 696 }
name = "Mac Cennétig"
province = { }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3100 }
name = "Mac Leoid"
province = { 35 38 39 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3101 }
name = "Mac Dónaill"
province = { 35 39 40 45 47 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3102 }
name = "Mac DubhSithe"
province = { 35 38 39 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3103 }
name = "Mac Néill"
province = { 35 39 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3104 }
name = "Mac Aodha"
province = { 36 37 38 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3105 }
name = "Mac Coinnigh"
province = { 38 39 40 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3107 }
name = "Mac Kinnon"
province = { 38 39 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3108 }
name = "Mac Griogair"
province = { 44 45 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3109 }
name = "Mac Dúghaill"
province = { 44 45 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3112 }
name = "Mac Niocal"
province = { 38 39 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3114 }
name = "Mac Beathan"
province = { 41 42 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3115 }
name = "Mac an Taoisigh"
province = { 41 43 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3116 }
name = "Mac Giolla Riabhaigh"
province = { 41 44 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3117 }
name = "Mac an Phearsúin"
province = { 40 44 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3121 }
name = "Mac Duibh"
province = { 46 48 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3127 }
name = "Mac Amhalaí"
province = { 45 47 49 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3135 }
name = "Mac Lachlainn"
province = { 45 47 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3143 }
name = "Mac Aonais"
province = { 50 53 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 4043 }
name = "Ó Domnaill"
province = { 003 004 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 4044 }
name = "Ó Ruairc" #DUPLICATE OF 101675
province = { 007 008 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 4045 }
name = "Ó Máille"
province = { 008 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14100 }
name = "Ó Baoghill"
province = { 3 4 7 8 10 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14101 }
name = "Ó Donnaghaile"
province = { 4 5 7 8 10 11 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14102 }
name = "Ó Dochartaigh"
province = { 3 4 7 8 9 10 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14103 }
name = "Ó hEachthighearna"
province = { 9 10 12 13 14 15 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14104 }
name = "Mac Bairéad"
province = { 9 13 14 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14106 }
name = "Mac Bradnigh"
province = { 3 4 5 7 10 11 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14107 }
name = "Ó Braonain"
province = { 8 9 10 11 12 14 15 16 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14108 }
name = "Mac Branain"
province = { 7 8 9 10 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14110 }
name = "Ó Broin"
province = { 11 12 15 16 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14111 }
name = "Ó Cathail"
province = { 9 12 13 14 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14112 }
name = "Ó Canannain"
province = { 3 4 7 8 9 10 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14113 }
name = "Ó Cearbhaill"
province = { 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14114 }
name = "Ó Cathasaigh"
province = { 3 4 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14115 }
name = "Mac Fhlannchaidh"
province = { 7 8 9 10 13 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14116 }
name = "Ó Cleirigh"
province = { 3 4 8 9 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14117 }
name = "Ó Conghalaigh"
province = { 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14118 }
name = "Mac Coisteala"
province = { 7 8 9 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14119 }
name = "Ó Cruadhlaoich"
province = { 9 13 14 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14120 }
name = "Ó Dimpsaigh"
province = { 10 11 12 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14121 }
name = "Ó DubhGhaill"
province = { 11 12 16 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14122 }
name = "Ó Aedhagan"
province = { 12 13 14 15 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14123 }
name = "Ó Fearghails"
province = { 4 5 7 10 11 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14124 }
name = "Mac Gillá Pátraic" #DUPLICATE OF 101677
province = { 12 15 16 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14125 }
name = "Ó Flaithbheartach"
province = { 9 13 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14126 }
name = "Ó Floinn"
province = { 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 12 13 14 15 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 14127 }
name = "Ó Gallchóir"
province = { 3 4 7 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 101674 }
name = "Ó Mórdha"
province = { 005 010 011 012 016 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 101675 }
name = "Ó Ruairc" #DUPLICATE OF 4044
province = { 007 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 101676 }
name = "Ó Faeláin"
province = { 011 012 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 101677 }
name = "Mac Gilla Pátraic" #DUPLICATE OF 14124
province = { 012 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 101678 }
name = "Ó Flaithri"
province = { 005 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 101679 }
name = "Ó hEochadha"
province = { 005 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 101712 }
name = "Mac Lochlainn"
province = { 004 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 101713 }
name = "Ó Mael Doraidh"
province = { 007 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 101721 }
name = "Ó Caollaidhe"
province = { 12 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 101722 }
name = "Ó Maoileachlainn"
province = { 10 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 101725 }
name = "Ó Carthaigh" #DUPLICATE OF 197
province = { 8 9 13 14 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 101901 }
name = "Mac Uilliam"
province = { 38 39 40 }
}

also...

dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3106 }
name = "de St Clair"
province = { 36 37 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3118 }
name = "de Berchela"
province = { 43 44 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3119 }
name = "de Frezeliere"
province = { 40 44 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3120 }
name = "de Ramsay"
province = { 48 51 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3122 }
name = "de Lindsay"
province = { 46 48 51 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3123 }
name = "de Brus"
province = { 46 48 49 50 51 53 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3136 }
name = "de Bard"
province = { 48 49 51 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3137 }
name = "de Olifard"
province = { 44 46 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3139 }
name = "de Livingstone"
province = { 40 45 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3140 }
name = "de Forbes"
province = { 41 42 43 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3141 }
name = "Armestrang"
province = { 50 53 }
}
dynasty = {
id = { type = 12 id = 3142 }
name = "de Johnston"
province = { 50 53 }
}

Ayeshteni

 

[unmerged(5822)]

The second melting pot event is perhaps a bit redundant, as the existing cultural conversion event has a mtth of 600 months for same-religion provinces.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Wasn't there disagreement on having Scottish as Lowlander tag?

 

[Brian Bóruma]

Wasn't there disagreement on having Scottish as Lowlander tag?

Aren't there disagreements on virtually everything? Most people liked the idea. (Arabia...)

 

[Calgacus]

Wasn't there disagreement on having Scottish as Lowlander tag?

Yep. I think its an awful idea. To imply that Gaelic doesn't mean Scottish (which in fact, is what it did mean in CK times) is both wrong, and potentially insulting; secondly, the Lowland Scots weren't distinct enough in CK period to merit their own tag; the English who lived in Scotland (i.e. Lothian and, by 1453, the burghs) were called simply "English". Merging Scottish and Irish has some positive things to it, but doing it simply to replace Scottish with another English culture with little historical reality (and what, 2 provinces in 1066, 4 in 1337?!), is not sensible.

I'd suggest the people involved have a good read of this wikipedia featured article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_in_the_High_Middle_Ages

 

[Brian Bóruma]

Yep. I think its an awful idea. To imply that Gaelic doesn't mean Scottish (which in fact, is what it did mean in CK times) is both wrong, and potentially insulting; secondly, the Lowland Scots weren't distinct enough in CK period to merit their own tag; the English who lived in Scotland (i.e. Lothian and, by 1453, the burghs) were called simply "English". Merging Scottish and Irish has some positive things to it, but doing it simply to replace Scottish with another English culture with little historical reality (and what, 2 provinces in 1066, 4 in 1337?!), is not sensible.

I'd suggest the people involved have a good read of this wikipedia featured article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_in_the_High_Middle_Ages

They weren't, though. Northumbrian (ancestor to Lowland Scots) was an Old English dialect, and by the 1100s, Old English died out and became Middle English in England and had therefore separated from Northumbrian in the north.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northumbrian_(Anglo-Saxon)
I can play the Wiki game too, my friend.

Yes, it was a dialect of Old English, but to say Lowlands = English is just absurd since 1066-c1100 is a very small portion of the game. The rest of the game, "English" means "Middle English". Lowlands is only one step away from Frisian. Shall we make them English too?


Suggestion: Rename the current "Scottish" tag to "Northumbrian", "Lowlands", or "Lallans" and use a list of mainly Anglic, with some French and Norse and a few bastardized Gaelic names.

 

[Calgacus]

They weren't, though. Northumbrian (ancestor to Lowland Scots) was an Old English dialect, and by the 1100s, Old English died out and became Middle English in England and had therefore separated from Northumbrian in the north.

Yes, it was a dialect of Old English, but to say Lowlands = English is just absurd since 1066-c1100 is a very small portion of the game. The rest of the game, "English" means "Middle English". Lowlands is only one step away from Frisian. Shall we make them English too?

Old English was transformed into Middle English gradually, in England and Lothian; in any case, it was the same. To put it in perspective, Barbour's Brus has a higher content of French-derived words, and is more similar to modern English, than the works of Chaucer; yet this text of the Middle English language was written in eastern Scotland in the middle of the fourteenth century. Scottish English was never identified by its speakers as a separate language in the CK period. Fact! D'you know what the word for it was? I'll tell you, "English"!

but to say Lowlands = English is just absurd since 1066-c1100 is a very small portion of the game.

I'm a little confused by this statement. What does 1066-1100 have to do with anything? English spoken in CK period "Scotland" is the like that in England, whether you take 1000 or 1300 as your date.

EDIT:

Suggestion: Rename the current "Scottish" tag to "Northumbrian", "Lowlands", or "Lallans" and use a list of mainly Anglic, with some French and Norse and a few bastardized Gaelic names.

This is bogus. Why do the English in Scotland or Northumbria get their own tag, but those in Ireland, Wales or the West Country not? The naming patterns of the Scoto-English are almost identical with those of England as a whole.

 

[Brian Bóruma]

Old English was transformed into Middle English gradually, in England and Lothian; in any case, it was the same. To put it in perspective, Barbour's Brus has a higher content of French-derived words, and is more similar to modern English, than the works of Chaucer; yet this text of the Middle English language was written in eastern Scotland in the middle of the fourteenth century. Scottish English was never identified by its speakers as a separate language in the CK period. Fact! D'you know what the word for it was? I'll tell you, "English"!



I'm a little confused by this statement. What does 1066-1100 have to do with anything? English spoken in CK period "Scotland" is the like that in England, whether you take 1000 or 1300 as your date.

Considering how confused the people of Britain were at the time, I'm not surprised. The Scots had no idea how the Pictish language died out, so they made some bogus excuse about exterminating them.

Lowlands had more of a Viking influence, whereas "English" had more of a Norman influence. Yes, Scotland in the late medieval period had tons of Normans. The Bruces and Balliols, most notably. However, they certainly didn't speak the West Saxon dialect of southern England, which derived from the Saxons, and not the Angles (where Ynglis/Northumbrian found its origin). Robert the Bruce spoke Gaelic, Latin, and French, among others.


But, like I said, Lowlands is not a Middle English dialect.

Old English names
Middle English names

There's a huge difference.

 

[Calgacus]

Considering how confused the people of Britain were at the time, I'm not surprised. The Scots had no idea how the Pictish language died out, so they made some bogus excuse about exterminating them.

Lowlands had more of a Viking influence, whereas "English" had more of a Norman influence. Yes, Scotland in the late medieval period had tons of Normans. The Bruces and Balliols, most notably. However, they certainly didn't speak the West Saxon dialect of southern England, which derived from the Saxons, and not the Angles (where Ynglis/Northumbrian found its origin). Robert the Bruce spoke Gaelic, Latin, and French, among others.

Northern English has lots of Viking influence; as evidenced by Barbour, Scottish English had the same if not more French content than the English of the south. BTW, don't buy into the myth that Saxons and Angles were different; this is a myth invented by Bede in order to make the Northumbrians the special English. All British Germans initially called themselves Saxons, and Angli was the word for the British Germans invented by Pope Gregory the Great.

But, like I said, Lowlands is not a Middle English dialect.

Old English names
Middle English names

There's a huge difference.

Sorry, I see a huge difference between Old and Middle English, not between English spoken in High Medieval Scotland and elsewhere.

PS, who is supposed to get this new culture? Two provinces in 1066 increasing to maybe four (if that) in 1337; and who, except the Counts of Berwick would actually get the culture, since all these lords are Gaelic and French in our scenarios. Seems like a waste of a tag to me.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

Wouldn't Kurdish be a bigger culture?

 

[Brian Bóruma]

For starters, the Lowlands version of John was "Ihon", Call a guy named "Gawter" 'Walter' and see if you get a response.

Mermadak
Alysandir
Gylmyne
Yngerame
Moriß
Raulf
Anguß
Dowglaß
Periß
Ferguß

Tons of Londoners there.

 

[Brian Bóruma]

Wouldn't Kurdish be a bigger culture?

Sure. You tell the Arabs that you're going to make Saladin a Kurd. I like my head on my neck, thanks.