Scandinavian (Swedish) Faith

Nikolai II · Sep 11, 2002

'Popular Historia' 6/2002 p.12 had an article suggesting a newish theory with some strengths about the state of christianity in Sweden in 1066.

It has been assumed when Adam of Bremen wrote about 'heathens' he meant 'aesir-worship' (Viking religion) but some evidence now (uncertainly) points towards Orthodox Christianity as the victim of his wrath.

Orthodox Christianity would then have been brought to 'Mälardalen' (Svealand on EU maps) by Väringaguards from East Rome (and maybe also as an extension of missionary activities in Russia?)

So, would I be able to play an orthodox Swedish dynasty or should I be limited to catholicism as it's conversion won out and stood the test of time.

Would it change if the information above became less disputed (unlikely, since half is conjectures and most of the physical evidence cannot be dated)

Havard · Sep 11, 2002

Well, the descriptions "disputed" and "conjectural" should maybe give a hint

I can't, based on what is common knowledge now see any reason for including an orthodox Sweden (or parts thereof)...

unmerged(255) · Sep 11, 2002

Originally posted by Nikolai II
'Popular Historia' 6/2002 p.12 had an article suggesting a newish theory with some strengths about the state of christianity in Sweden in 1066.

It has been assumed when Adam of Bremen wrote about 'heathens' he meant 'aesir-worship' (Viking religion) but some evidence now (uncertainly) points towards Orthodox Christianity as the victim of his wrath.

Isn't "heathen" to strong a term to use for schismatics? I'm not familiar with Adam of Bremen, but heathen is really one of those words that's hard to misinterpret...

Nikolai II · Sep 11, 2002

Originally posted by Havard
Well, the descriptions "disputed" and "conjectural" should maybe give a hint

I can't, based on what is common knowledge now see any reason for including an orthodox Sweden (or parts thereof)...

Although conjectural is just IMHO, disputed is still true though.

The 'evidence' (Lily-stones) are currently on display in 'Historiska Museet' (Museum of History, Stockholm) in their 'Viking Age Exhibition' and although they display both theories about the stones origins (either viking age or medieval) they have them there to remind that christianity struck scandinavia from both ways, e.g. Orthodox/Catholic bisection of europe going through Finland.

The varjag, or varinga guard were forced to take baptism, and religion could be a very serious matter (can still be) and it wouldn't be surprising if some of them kept their new faith when they returned to Sweden.

I'm not claiming that the provinces should be orthodox though, they can remain pagan/catholic, I'm just asking if some of the dynasties present in the area could be orthodox.

Adam could very well have felt that orthodoxy was infringing upon his rights to christen the population, and to get the masses to join his church he would have to make its difference to the ruling castes religion extremely obvious, whether it was pagan of orthodox.

Lilystones (Liljestenar) gains their name from the pattern, reminicent of lilys, that portray the 'Tree of Life', a motif of resurrection in christian art.

Current theory places them in 13th century with inspiration from england and concurrent in history with the first stone churches in Sweden.

New theory predates them back to viking age and the 'stavkyrkor', wooden churches that predate those of stone.
That would fit together with mentionings in the 'Västgötalagen' about altar-stones.

Västergötland should though, according to västgötaskolan and by my MHO be catholic, due to nearness of denmark, england and the continent.

Svealand on the other hand is a possible suspect for orthodox leader-caste returning from byzans and russias and trading and communication more freely with eastern europe than the other direction.

Nikolai II · Sep 11, 2002

Re: Re: Scandinavian (Swedish) Faith

Originally posted by tuna

Isn't "heathen" to strong a term to use for schismatics? I'm not familiar with Adam of Bremen, but heathen is really one of those words that's hard to misinterpret...

Well, Swedish 'hedning' used in the article can also be translated to 'Pagan' (or 'Gentile', but that shouldn't be an issue)

Non-state-supported missionaries tend to be loud-mouthed braggarts, or they wouldn't be much good at their job of proclaiming the superiority of their god(s) over the local customs.

Still, it is strong words, but what should he have used instead, if they were orthodox?

Remember that we are talking about peoples very souls here.

Vandelay · Sep 11, 2002

More of a fantasy scenario I´d say, but one interesting to design if CK gets an editor or can be dited as easily as EUII.

While there are som Christian artefacts of Eastern origins e.g. resurrection eggs in the Mälardalen area, Western Catholic archaeological objects dominate. Another thing is we do have some very early (11th and 12th century) inscriptions in Latin while none in Greek (or Slavic for that matter) - all these early inscriptions tend to be religious in content.

Church art, especially on Gotland, shows heavy Byzantine influences but it´s not considered significant enough to warrant believing Gotland was Christianized from the East. The lily stones could be a parallel to this, though the Orthodox origin of lily stones is more than disputed. Personally, I´ve always wonderd whether the ledung was inspired by the Byzantine themata (since I doubt the ledung had an Iron Age origin).

One common belief though is that all Swedish crusades from 13th century onwards were more directed at the Orthodox than true pagans.

BTW early texts also show considerable competetion between the English and German churches when it comes to the Christening of Sweden (even to the point of calling areas converted by the other church heathen according to some research.).

Cheers,
Vandelay

unmerged(255) · Sep 11, 2002

Re: Re: Re: Scandinavian (Swedish) Faith

Originally posted by Nikolai II

Still, it is strong words, but what should he have used instead, if they were orthodox?

Remember that we are talking about peoples very souls here.

Hrm I see your point, but doesn't it strike you as odd that he (apparently) doesn't make any references to "their" version of Christianity? The fact that they don't recognize the supremacy of the Pope etc. Branding a people simply as heathen and making no further observations about their faith seemed to me like how a Christian (or Muslim) would treat polytheistic / animist societies. Even when writing about Islam, Christian scholars comment on much more (i.e. the fact that Muslims reject the divinity of Jesus, that they pray five times a day etc.)

unmerged(234) · Sep 11, 2002

Re: Re: Re: Scandinavian (Swedish) Faith

Originally posted by Nikolai II

Still, it is strong words, but what should he have used instead, if they were orthodox?

Heretic? or is that word of later date?

But Frankly wich word did he use? Since he did not write in english it was hardly heathen.

unmerged(1057) · Sep 11, 2002

Re: Re: Re: Re: Scandinavian (Swedish) Faith

Originally posted by Janbalk

Heretic? or is that word of later date?

But Frankly wich word did he use? Since he did not write in english it was hardly heathen.

I think the text is on the net somewhere..perhaps even in it´s original language (latin?)

I tried to discuss this earlier on in a thread "competing missionaries". From what I have read there were at least competition between english and germans in Sweden, probably was our crusades in the east directed against the orthdox Novgorod-Karelians..

Demetrios · Sep 11, 2002

Re: Re: Re: Scandinavian (Swedish) Faith

Originally posted by Nikolai II

Well, Swedish 'hedning' used in the article can also be translated to 'Pagan' (or 'Gentile', but that shouldn't be an issue)

Non-state-supported missionaries tend to be loud-mouthed braggarts, or they wouldn't be much good at their job of proclaiming the superiority of their god(s) over the local customs.

Still, it is strong words, but what should he have used instead, if they were orthodox?

Remember that we are talking about peoples very souls here.

"Schismatic" or "excommunicate". Orthodox were definitely not considered "heathen" by the Catholic Church; that term was confined to non-Christians.

Nikolai II · Sep 11, 2002

Oh-kay, I was just tossing out a theory here.

I guess I'll have to play a finnic orthodox then

Or I'll have to edit one smallish province in Svealand to an independent orthodox duchy. Considering the lack of sources it will certainly be lost in history come our time

Nikolai II · Sep 11, 2002

Re: Re: Re: Re: Scandinavian (Swedish) Faith

Originally posted by Demetrios

"Schismatic" or "excommunicate". Orthodox were definitely not considered "heathen" by the Catholic Church; that term was confined to non-Christians.

But they could throw much viler insults than 'schismatic' or even 'excommunicate' even though they are hard to imagine.

Feelings between the West and the East brands of christianity could be .. strained at times, just as feelings within each school would also frequently erupt into murderous rages about words that I as a non-scholar don't remember, but were centered about whether christ was born a god or not, if he was part human or not, if he was an indivisible part of god or a separate entity etc etc.

But heathen would most likely be a pagan I guess, as you say.

.. unless Pope and Patriarch were currently on better terms, and agreeing not to spread faith into others areas, in which case he would have to pretend those he converted weren't christians (conspiracy theory, I know, but maybe a fragile possibility?

)

Demetrios · Sep 11, 2002

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Scandinavian (Swedish) Faith

Originally posted by Nikolai II

.. unless Pope and Patriarch were currently on better terms, and agreeing not to spread faith into others areas, in which case he would have to pretend those he converted weren't christians (conspiracy theory, I know, but maybe a fragile possibility? )

Not in 1066 - that was only 10 years after the final schism...

unmerged(1057) · Sep 11, 2002

Originally posted by Nikolai II
Oh-kay, I was just tossing out a theory here.

I guess I'll have to play a finnic orthodox then

Or I'll have to edit one smallish province in Svealand to an independent orthodox duchy. Considering the lack of sources it will certainly be lost in history come our time

It was probably much more likely with an orthodox community in the northern parts of present day Sweden..The Karelians must surely have had some influence in the Torne River Valley, the oldest preserved Västerbothnic taxations show something like the Novgorodian style of taxation, it might even be inherited by the swedish crown from Novgorod..

edit: the style of taxation that is..

Nikolai II · Sep 11, 2002

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Scandinavian (Swedish) Faith

Originally posted by Demetrios

Not in 1066 - that was only 10 years after the final schism...

So maybe he was, like, really P.O.ed

(Reaching for straws? Nonsense, I couldn't reach for a straw if my liff...)

Nikolai II · Sep 11, 2002

Originally posted by Wasa

It was probably much more likely with an orthodox community in the northern parts of present day Sweden..The Karelians must surely have had some influence in the Torne River Valley, the oldest preserved Västerbothnic taxations show something like the Novgorodian style of taxation, it might even be inherited by the swedish crown from Novgorod..

edit: the style of taxation that is..

Fair enough, independant duchies would have an easier time to assert their said intependence when in a remote location as well, so I guess my future past Swedish Orthodoxy will have it's capital way up north.

Demetrios · Sep 11, 2002

Originally posted by Wasa

It was probably much more likely with an orthodox community in the northern parts of present day Sweden..The Karelians must surely have had some influence in the Torne River Valley, the oldest preserved Västerbothnic taxations show something like the Novgorodian style of taxation, it might even be inherited by the swedish crown from Novgorod..

edit: the style of taxation that is..

Most maps I have seen shows that the northern Gulf of Bothnia area were at one point under the control of Novgorod. It doesn't seem that their influence got too far south in Vasterbotten...

unmerged(1057) · Sep 11, 2002

Originally posted by Nikolai II

Fair enough, independant duchies would have an easier time to assert their said intependence when in a remote location as well, so I guess my future past Swedish Orthodoxy will have it's capital way up north.

I don´t know if you are familiar with writer and orthodox priest Bengt Pohjanen. He has built an orthodox church in Svartbyn, Överkalix...here is a link: http://www.sirillus.se/

unmerged(1057) · Sep 11, 2002

Originally posted by Demetrios

Most maps I have seen shows that the northern Gulf of Bothnia area were at one point under the control of Novgorod. It doesn't seem that their influence got too far south in Vasterbotten...

Well, the border was disputed..and also the cause of nearly constant wars between Sweden and Novgorod..There is a rock just 40km north of Umeå believed to be the Novgorodian bordermark to the south..and that is just some 60km north of Angermannia (province Gästrikland in the EU2 game)

Nikolai II · Sep 11, 2002

Originally posted by Wasa

Well, the border was disputed..and also the cause of nearly constant wars between Sweden and Novgorod..There is a rock just 40km north of Umeå believed to be the Novgorodian bordermark to the south..and that is just some 60km north of Angermannia (province Gästrikland in the EU2 game)

Splendid, then I'll place my orthodoxites there and strike both ways, that should keep me busy

About sirillus link, I wasn't familiar with them, maybe I'll try to find one of his books sometime when I have a metre less of unread books shelved waiting for my attention

I think I prefer the more local ones though. In Stockholm(Vårberg)

I thought I'd share his saying of the week though

(Bengt Pohjanen i Karavanen TV 1 28.8.02)

Stäng TV:n, kryp i säng, gör barn

Shut of the telly, get into bed, make babies. (Said on a TV show)

Scandinavian (Swedish) Faith

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