Say goodbye to vassal feeding (finally) - [Vassal feeding megathread]

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On the subject (ho ho) of vassal changes - I noticed today that a whole bunch of the French vassals suddenly had Support Independence done for them, by other nations.

This implies that subjects like vassals can now break away from their overlords, and will be supported in that goal by other nations. This feature was announced for Colonial Nations, but it seems it applies for all subjects; well, at least it applies for vassals as well as Colonial Nations.

So that definitely makes vassals more volatile and more interesting - and goes some way towards what people are asking for (like ^^ IZob) in regards to making vassals harder to use. Before now, vassals would basically never ever break away.

that sounds way better than before since, while playing as a vassal, you could not declare independence and call in allies, which means you can never break free if your overlord was much stronger than you. now that we have this mechanic, we can gain supporters who will be called into the war when we declare independence so breaking free from an overlord that is much more powerful will no longer be impossible.

 

[Briloner]

frustrating - hilarious - strange

I tried for the first time ever (!) to purposefully feed 1 province in order to annex later - just during a fast test-run. And lo and behold. I felt pretty stupid - the fabled vassal-feeding did not work. I thought I would be a total noob. However having read the first 6 pages here made me calm down.

On a serious note, I usually do not feed vassals in order to annex, but rather for strategic or role-playing reasons, e.g. having a Bavaria as vassal which control all Bavarian-cultured provinces. I am sad that this seems to have perished, too.

However I am pretty sure that the situation will be much better soon. On the one hand, once the reasoning behind those modifiers is explained, there might already be a new opening / a new strategy. And on the other hand PI is quite willing to undo or modify changes if protest and criticism rise. (In fact I know of no vital nerf, which has not been de-nerfed, after a lot of digital tears have been shed. :happy

 

[TheBloke]

Ok here is what I've seen.

Auvergne/ Admin/ Wants to conquer: Poitou/ Will buy: Poitou, nothing else/ Threats: France 400/ Targets: France 117

Foix/ Mil / Wants to conquer: Every adjacent province (England, Aragon), all cores from overlord/ Will buy: Every province it can core. / Threats: France 400, England 250, Aragon 180/ Targets: France 400, Aragon 270, England 140

Orleans/ Balanced/ Wants to conquer: Every adjacent province, all cores from overlord/ Will buy: Every province it can core. / Threats: France 400, Provence 100/ Targets: France 400, Provence 250

Armangac/ Diplo/ Wants to conquer: Cores, adjacent province, except Gascogne/ Will buy: Cores, adjacent province, except Gascogne/ Threats: France 400/ Friends: England 400/ Targets: France 400

Why doesnt it want Gascogne ? It has the same culture as Armangac cap - Gascon, actually all the other provinces are a different culture. I removed Englands core and my core, incase it doesnt want to take a core of its friends. I gave them 500 adm, so they could core it if they buy it. They wouldnt.

Edit: I have another possiblity. Gascogne is a river estuary. Can I remove that bonus form the province ? Maybe diplo doesnt want to get involved in trade.

Awesome! Thanks so much for checking all that.

So this seems to confirm Wants to Conquer as the decider, beyond core/claim? There's certainly no evidence against that being a key factor, from your results and mine.

Did you see any examples where they would buy it even if it wasn't on the Wants to Conquer list (and wasn't core/claim)? Anything to suggest there's another factor as well?

 

[Gustave5436]

Soooo...

My Russian ironman game that was 50 years from the end date is destroyed today. Game crashes when the month turns every time.

So I start a new game. I find that Russia in the meantime has been nerfed (yay?) and none of my vassals want anything to do with any conquered territory. Sooo.. in order to create the Russian borders in the 1800's I'll need to spend something on the order of ten thousand or so admin points? I suppose I could grab diplomatic ideas, fabricate claims on every single border province, declare war, *only* take those provinces, core them, and repeat to get the 25% reduction, but we're still talking thousands and thousands and thousands of admin points to get even close to historical borders.

Westernization is likely impossible without a string of high admin kings (which is purely luck based) as the years of no admin points will create an even bigger void in the points required for coring.

Am I missing something or is that pretty much the state of things now?

Russian ideas 2 + administrative ideas 2 + claim = 65% total discount on coring cost. For the 1444 start, that's 280 admin points to eat the golden horde, 245 for crimea, 294 for kazan, 210 for nogai, and 245 for uzbek. Giving a total cost of 1274 admin points. Or 2184 if you don't take admin ideas. Assuming you forge claims on all the provinces, you'll probably be waiting for truces to run out, not monarch points to refill.

Then you get to dismember China by vassalizing the kingdoms and returning cores, which every other European (except Poland, of course) can't do anymore because of protectorates.

 

[Pornek]

Awesome! Thanks so much for checking all that.

So this seems to confirm Wants to Conquer as the decider, beyond core/claim? There's certainly no evidence against that being a key factor, from your results and mine.

Did you see any examples where they would buy it even if it wasn't on the Wants to Conquer list (and wasn't core/claim)? Anything to suggest there's another factor as well?

Wait, big thing I overlooked.

View attachment 98887

They border Languedoc, but dont want to conquer it and buy it.

I fabricated a claim, they will buy it now.
Edit: However they still dont want to conquer it in the AIview

Edit2: Both provinces have a basetax higher than 8. Gasconge has 8, Languedoc 9. Maybe thats the deciding factor? They will only buy provinces below that ?

 

[Kraxis]

Awesome! Thanks so much for checking all that.

So this seems to confirm Wants to Conquer as the decider, beyond core/claim? There's certainly no evidence against that being a key factor, from your results and mine.

Did you see any examples where they would buy it even if it wasn't on the Wants to Conquer list (and wasn't core/claim)? Anything to suggest there's another factor as well?

Actually it seems if it doesn't want to conquer a core or claim it won't buy. See Armangac and Gascogne.

[EDIT] Thread moving fast. Seems claims at least trump 'want to conquer'. Seems strange.

 

[TheBloke]

Wait, big thing I overlooked.


They border Languedoc, but dont want to conquer it and buy it.

I fabricated a claim, they will buy it now.
Edit: However they still dont want to conquer it in the AIview

Edit2: Both provinces have a basetax higher than 8. Gasconge has 8, Languedoc 9. Maybe thats the deciding factor? They will only buy provinces below that ?

But if it's got a claim on it, that overrides all. Core or claim = always buy. Non core/claim = only buy if Wants to Conquer.

Does that disprove that? It doesn't seem to, unless I've misunderstood?

Actually it seems if it doesn't want to conquer a core or claim it won't buy. See Armangac and Gascogne.

[EDIT] Thread moving fast. Seems claims at least trump 'want to conquer'. Seems strange.

Yeah it definitely trumps it. Core/claim = ALWAYS buy. That was what I found in my testing. Portugal did not want to conquer anything, and would not buy anything. I added cores to some provinces, claims to others, and it would then buy them all.

 

[PJL]

I read somewhere that countries won't accept any provs if it makes their OE over 30%. OE itself is just basetax x4. So anything over 7 basetax will not be accepted anyway.

 

[Kraxis]

They still don't want to buy the Gascogne core, and they will buy the more expensive Languedoc claim. Both without 'want to conquer'. No set definition is ready yet.

Seems very odd. Claim trumps core, when it should be the other way round, if it is a factor. Which it seems to be since Languedoc was unfeedable until claimed. Also since Languedoc is BT 9 we can throw the old BT 7 rule out the window. Besides, cores provide 0 OE don't they?

 

[Prodicus]

People say the game is ruined after every new update. Frankly, I find vassal feeding gamey and historically questionable, so I'm glad it's no longer by far the optimal strategy. Moreover, I don't think this change makes it hard to replicate the historical expansion of anyone but Russia and the Ottomans (and perhaps GB in India).

I'm sure Johan and Friends will find a way to make expansion a bit easier on admin points soon enough. Maybe they could make overseas provinces 33% cheaper and faster to core, and give Russia a bonus to coring cost in exchange for its manpower nerf. Or they could have late-game great wars like in Victoria 2, with reduced AE and OE from large conquests.

 

[Lindorn]

You +1'd me but I'm generally saying that I think Vassal Feeding has more depth now, than it did in 1.3 - whereas I think you think the opposite? We are still learning details, but I think these changes could actually make it even more complex and interesting.

World Conqueror achievement should actually be easier : because you don't have to be the only tag/nation left. Your subjects count, as well. So you can vassalise everything (probably using HRE to make them DipRel free) and Protectorise everything, and that all counts for WC; you don't ever have to Integrate them. Overall I think that makes it a lot easier.

Actually dude from what I've been reading the Hauptmann HRE diplo-annex strat is out as well. If it is true that the requirements for basetax in diplo-vassalization have indeed been made more stringent (I haven't played yet today - still at work - so jelly of you losers )

I think we're skirting around the real issue here. Someone mentioned it quite eloquently earlier. Is this or is this not an empire-building game? My enjoyment of this game is very deep and broad, but in no small part do I enjoy this game because at the end of it I can see my name in giant-ass letters across the map. The less possible that becomes the less "epic" the experience becomes. I'm not saying I want it easy, I just want sensical (i.e. not the strategy you just mentioned above with Scotland and Britain, no offense) methods to expand my empire that are, to your other point, more interesting than "DOW/annex". The less options I have in the expansion department the less I'm going to feel like I'm in an empire building game.

Again I'm caveating everything by letting you guys know I haven't even touched it today. We're all jumping the gun a little here because none of us have played enough to really get the "feel" yet. That being said I'm just super nervous because quite frankly vassal-feeding prior to 1.4 wasn't just the best way to expand the empire, it was kinda-sorta the only practical way on a game-wide basis.... :/

 

[tyler717]

i carried on with my current brunei game , currently feeding malacca with Aceh conquered provinces, they brought all of Aceh provinces as same culture , religion , price ect , yet Zhou wont by a province with same culture,religion,price due to strategic interest yet surely gaining a 5 base tax province , with same boarder+ religion ect would benefit Zhou ?

 

[Pornek]

But if it's got a claim on it, that overrides all. Core or claim = always buy. Non core/claim = only buy if Wants to Conquer.

Does that disprove that? It doesn't seem to, unless I've misunderstood?

No youre right. That seems to be the case.

I made another test.
Orleans/ Diplo/ wants: Nothing/ buys: nothing

Made Gascogne a core of Orleans. Will buy.

The problem is apart from cores/claims, it is entirely abitrary what Diplo will buy. So the best way is to assume, they will only buy cores and claims. Contrary to others.

 

[Pornek]

They still don't want to buy the Gascogne core, and they will buy the more expensive Languedoc claim. Both without 'want to conquer'. No set definition is ready yet.

Seems very odd. Claim trumps core, when it should be the other way round, if it is a factor. Which it seems to be since Languedoc was unfeedable until claimed. Also since Languedoc is BT 9 we can throw the old BT 7 rule out the window.

Gascogne is not a core of Armangac.

Edit: Made it a core, they now buy it.

 

[KiLaNova]

Rarely used vassel feeding. Felt too easy to expand this way.

That being said, some of the coring costs are way way too high, using up the equivalent to 1 tech advance lol wut?

I don't know if coring costs have been reduced in 1.4 but I really hope they are to balance things out.

 

[TheBloke]

The problem is apart from cores/claims, it is entirely abitrary what Diplo will buy. So the best way is to assume, they will only buy cores and claims. Contrary to others.

Thanks, yeah that's good rule of thumb.

Balanced is also a pain, because I think balanced basically means "they might be mil, they might be dip - YOU DONT KNOW!"

Anyway not a problem for me because I plan to play with aiview always enabled But big hassle for Ironman users or those who don't want aiview on..

 

[Kraxis]

No youre right. That seems to be the case.

I made another test.
Orleans/ Diplo/ wants: Nothing/ buys: nothing

Made Gascogne a core of Orleans. Will buy.

The problem is apart from cores/claims, it is entirely abitrary what Diplo will buy. So the best way is to assume, they will only buy cores and claims. Contrary to others.

But didn't Armangac refuse to buy their cored Gascogne? Obviously there are cases where even cores won't be sellable.

 

[Pornek]

But didn't Armangac refuse to buy their cored Gascogne? Obviously there are cases where even cores won't be sellable.

No. As I said it wasnt a core. When I made it a core, they wanted to buy it. Which case?

 

[TheBloke]

I don't know if coring costs have been reduced in 1.4 but I really hope they are to balance things out.

Generally, they have not.

However the "Hostile Core Creation On Us" has been changed from 200% to 100%. This means that for example Berber (Morocco) cores are now only twice as expensive, instead of three times. Same applies to Hungary I think.

 

[TheBloke]

Actually dude from what I've been reading the Hauptmann HRE diplo-annex strat is out as well. If it is true that the requirements for basetax in diplo-vassalization have indeed been made more stringent (I haven't played yet today - still at work - so jelly of you losers )

Yes it is - I posted about that earlier; there's now a max of 30 Base Tax on the target for DipVassalise. So you can't overcome any Base Tax modifier by maxing Trust and DipRel and Relative Military.

I think we're skirting around the real issue here. Someone mentioned it quite eloquently earlier. Is this or is this not an empire-building game? My enjoyment of this game is very deep and broad, but in no small part do I enjoy this game because at the end of it I can see my name in giant-ass letters across the map. The less possible that becomes the less "epic" the experience becomes. I'm not saying I want it easy, I just want sensical (i.e. not the strategy you just mentioned above with Scotland and Britain, no offense) methods to expand my empire that are, to your other point, more interesting than "DOW/annex". The less options I have in the expansion department the less I'm going to feel like I'm in an empire building game.

Again I'm caveating everything by letting you guys know I haven't even touched it today. We're all jumping the gun a little here because none of us have played enough to really get the "feel" yet. That being said I'm just super nervous because quite frankly vassal-feeding prior to 1.4 wasn't just the best way to expand the empire, it was kinda-sorta the only practical way on a game-wide basis.... :/

Sure I understand.

Do remember that in addition to these vassal feed changes, 1.4 makes it easier for direct conquest because of the no-scaling AE. And you say you want empire building and your name in big letters - so that's a big help, right?

Of course that's slightly tangential, because vassal feeding is mostly about admin cost, and that's mostly about AE. But it's a change in the direction you want, anyway.

I can't deny that vassal feeding now seems a lot more complex, and the strategy I suggested is far from straightforward, and far from logical. I think there's going to be a lot of people unhappy with the changes.

The irony is that probably this change doesn't make anyone happy, much. The "anti vassal feed" crowd won't be happy - despite their initial jubilation in all of the vassal feed threads - because it is still possible, and indeed the strategies used may be even more complex now. It'll make them upset to read about that, apparently. The "vassal feed" crowd mostly won't be happy because it got nerfed. And no-one's happy about how it wasn't announced, and how the UI isn't up to scratch, and all the rest.

Oh, well. I am determined to be happy