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Darkrenown

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Despite hardly anyone responding to the thread where I came up with this idea I went ahead and changed all the surrender commands to secedeprovince commands in the PU, CE and three hurrahs events for unifing Germany.

Result: No BB at all from unifing Germany.

Downsides:

You get a million "Province liberated" messages on screen. But you can just hold down enter, or set them not to show during the event.

You still have revolt risk in the provinces.

No BB or relations hit from forming Germany, but I can add them in events. What'd think, 20 BB?

This method can remove the BB from forming Italy or annexing the rebs in the ACW too.
 
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OriginalRafiki

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"Unification-BB, you are the weakest link. Goodbye!"

:D Rafiki

PS: Nice work Darkrenown :)
 

unmerged(25926)

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Darkrenown said:
No BB or relations hit from forming Germany, but I can add them in events. What'd think, 20 BB?
Excellent! Great work! I added 10 BB in my game but maybe that isn't enough? 15? Too low and Germany will be too free to rampage. Too high and we'll get BB wars again (especially if it was necessary to annex a few democratic states before the CE event).

Maybe 15 to allow for a DOW and one or two necessary annexations to ensure the CE? That way you'd end up with about 20.

If the experienced players figure a final BB of 20 is fine then I can go for that. :)
 
Last edited:

Memnon

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Darkrenown,

I am glad that someone with your skill has invested so much time and effort into improving the German Unification events. I have put a great deal of thought into this matter, and I have come to several conclusions I think you might want to keep in mind:

First, I think that the effects of the unification must be subject to the form it takes. Remember what the blurb of text says about the Conservative Empire: had the German states successfully avoided liberal revolutions in 1848, they probably would have united to form a “conservative empire” dedicated to forestalling the advent of liberal governments in Germany. Undoubtedly, this kind of reaction would have made all liberal governments loathsome of Germany, but the conservative governments would have loved them.

In popular unification scenarios, on the other hand, the liberal governments would probably rejoice, whereas conservative governments such as those in Russia would see their enemies increasing in number. I have no experience whatsoever with mods, but I strongly suggest that you tag the event to make either a positive or negative relations adjustment with a certain country depending on their government. If Russia succumbs to the Liberal Revolution and has a liberal government, they would be quite happy to see another join their ranks, whereas if Germany went democratic while Russia slaughtered thousands of its liberal citizens in revolts, they would probably be none too happy.

Second, I think the effects of unification should be always at least slightly negative towards France. The French, whether under a liberal or conservative government, have always feared German power, and with good reason—it’s been a direct threat to them since the Holy Roman Empire moved across the Rhine. I would argue that there should always be a downgrade of Franco-German relations as a result of unification, despite its form, but I do think that the extent the downgrade takes should still depend on the form of government, as described above.

Third, I think that for the same reason as France, there should always be a relations hit with Austria (except in the Popular Unification of course, assuming Austria joins). But this hit must be tagged to depend on whether or not Prussia won the war of 1866 to contest leadership in Germany. If it did, then much less of a relation hit; if it was a stalemate, then a moderate one; if it lost, then a big one.

Fourth, regarding the historical unification process, I believe that the answer is more complicated. Allow me to quote from A.J.P. Taylor’s landmark book Bismarck:
“The danger of European intervention was never serious. Neither Russia nor Great Britain regretted the defeat of France. Russia hoped for a freer hand in the Near East; Great Britain was relieved of her anxieties in regard to Belgium. Italy was content to have occupied Rome on 20 September and was already looking to Germany as her new patron. Only Austria-Hungary might have entered the war against Prussia and then only if France had won the first battles. She was saved from disaster by her usual process of delay. By October, Francis-Joseph was saying to the Prussian ambassador: ‘You cannot expect me to like what has happened. But I shall agree to anything; I shall do nothing’…Bismarck had grown up when the Concert of Europe was a reality, and it was difficult for him to appreciate that it no longer existed” (Taylor, 126-127).
Therefore, I argue that, in the historical scenario, the relations hit should depend on whether Napoleon III still controls the government of France. If he does, less of a badboy hit at unification. If he doesn’t, and the government is a liberal democracy, then a greater badboy hit. But I think the paragraph makes clear that, as the process unfolded historically, there was little to no chance that Bismarck’s unification would have caused the historical equivalent of a badboy war.

In conclusion, I recognize that the event for German Unification is extremely complicated already, and that my suggestions only make it more so, but in real life, it took someone with the skill of Otto von Bismarck to work it all out, so it really shouldn’t be all that simple anyway. Once again, I recommend that you tag the event to reflect a relation hit dependent on the form of government, but always negative—with stipulations on the amount—with Austria and France.

On a personal note, let me repeat how happy I am that someone with your skill (which is far above my own) has undertaken the task to remedy the problem with German Unification. These opinions are my own, but I hope they help.

Sincerely,
Memnon
 

unmerged(8351)

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This is a good idea, but I am very worried about reducing the CE event BB too much both from historical and gameplay balance perspectives. The CE event should have a MUCH greater cost than just having to annex 1 or 2 one province minors, otherwise not doing it is simply a style decision and really does not ever make sense. CE drastically upsets the balance of what is happening in europe and right now the bar for triggering it is pretty low.

From a histroic standpoint even if Prussia had prusued this course of action they prebably wouldn't have had as much control over the new territory as the game implies. It would probably be more historical to just make all the german states PRU sattilites (without ceding territory to PRU), except for maybe a few who for whatever reason were likely to integrate quickly. Along with giving PRU SG culture and the GER tag it would still be a powerful event, but not the be all end all it currently is. (There is the small problem of then having the minors get annexed for free at some late date...maybe still 3 hurrahs???). Historically I think AUS and FRA would have frowned very very strongly at PRU gaining the type of strength and control over the other minors implied in the event.

Perhaps the event would be better if it trigger an immeadiate war betwen AUS DEN and FRA versus the new GER.

Anyway just my thoughts, I know this is a very popular event, but right now I think it is a little unbalanced and silly.
 

unmerged(26608)

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I think that the intent of the CE empire badboy reduction was to reduce the normal 48 badboy you'd get from annexing all the german minors by 30 to 18. So I'd suggest a badboy of about 18 for CE Germany.

All the comments on liberal vs. conservative neighbors are very on-point.

I also think Becephalus' comment is on-point. Perhaps modify the CE to cede/annex several of the 1 and 2 province minors, then Confederate the larger ones. Simultaneously, France and should be given an event to opt to declare war on Germany (and it's satellite) to prevent Germany from forming--default choice war. Austria be given the same choice--default choice neutrality. Likewise Russia, default choice threaten France with war, give it a chance to back down?

Of course, given that the CE happens at about the same time as the Crimean war, this could get very complicated.
 

Darkrenown

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Memnon said:
. Undoubtedly, this kind of reaction would have made all liberal governments loathsome of Germany, but the conservative governments would have loved them.
Good points. It should be possible to have events for the GPs in europe to give a positive or negative relations hit depending on government type triggered by the CE or PU events. Say +100 for the same type of government and -100 otherwise?

Memnon said:
I would argue that there should always be a downgrade of Franco-German relations as a result of unification, despite its form, but I do think that the extent the downgrade takes should still depend on the form of government, as described above.
If I go with improving relations events I can give France -50 for sililar gov and - 150 for opposite government.

Memnon said:
Third, I think that for the same reason as France, there should always be a relations hit with Austria (except in the Popular Unification of course, assuming Austria joins). But this hit must be tagged to depend on whether or not Prussia won the war of 1866 to contest leadership in Germany. If it did, then much less of a relation hit; if it was a stalemate, then a moderate one; if it lost, then a big one.
Well both CE and PU fire before the 66 war. I could give Austria the same event as France.

Memnon said:
Therefore, I argue that, in the historical scenario, the relations hit should depend on whether Napoleon III still controls the government of France. If he does, less of a badboy hit at unification.
I think that might be getting overly complex :) I might change the relations hit depending on Nappy. I'll see how things go.

Memnon said:
On a personal note, let me repeat how happy I am that someone with your skill (which is far above my own) has undertaken the task to remedy the problem with German Unification.
Thanks:)
 

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MisterKurtz said:
I think that the intent of the CE empire badboy reduction was to reduce the normal 48 badboy you'd get from annexing all the german minors by 30 to 18. So I'd suggest a badboy of about 18 for CE Germany.
Sounds good as a starting point. Ideally I'd like a strong German to avoid a BB war, but a weak Germany to be attacked. I'll probably give PU the same and 3 hurrahs a little more.

I can see you and Bel's point about the CE, but I don't really want to change the event that much. But once I release this mod your free to change it further if you want.
 

Darkrenown

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Speaking of releasing this, anyone want to host it? It's still a work in progress at the moment, but it shouldn't take more than a day or so.
 

Darkrenown

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Work in progress:

Code:
#Popular unification reaction
event = {
	id = 9601
	random = no
	country = FRA

	trigger = {
		event = 4612
		constitution = { country = FRA type = monarchy }
		constitution = { country = FRA type = constitutional_monarchy }
		
	}

	name = "Democratic Germany formed"
	desc = "The will of the people has united Germany"
	style = 0

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1836 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1920 }

	action_a = {
		name = "We can't stand democracies!"
		command = { type = relation which = GER value = -150 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "We must crush them!"
		command = { type = war which = GER }
	}
}


		
#Popular unification reaction
event = {
	id = 9602
	random = no
	country = FRA

	trigger = {
		event = 4612
		constitution = { country = FRA type = democracy }
		
	}

	name = "Democratic Germany formed"
	desc = "The will of the people has united Germany"
	style = 0

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1836 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1920 }

	action_a = {
		name = "A democratic Germany isn't so bad"
		command = { type = relation which = GER value = -50 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "We must crush them!"
		command = { type = war which = GER }
	}
}
First 'reaction' events. Not tested yet, but they should work. :)
Edit: nope, they don't. Off to the mod forum to ask why.
 
Last edited:

OriginalRafiki

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Darkrenown, do you need some hosting help? No problemo in that case; PM or mail me (address at The Camp)

:) Rafiki
 

unmerged(11874)

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Excellent work on the unification badboy. Thoughts:

1) The Conservative Empire event is overpowered. Frederick William IV stated after the Revolution that he'd only accept the crown from his royal peers, but they were not, I feel, of a mind to give it to him. The German states should, at most, become satellites--and then only if Austria has not been ahistorically successful in defending its own interests. If this is distasteful to all of you, then at least a sharp rise in militancy amongst liberals should be included in the price Prussia has to pay to spearhead a reactionary reorganization of the German Confederation.

2) The Popular Unification and the Frankfurt Crown are underpowered and underdeveloped. As it stands, the former only occurs if ALL German states are democracies; the latter just forms the two German federations. They probably ought to be combined, with all democratic or constitutional German states being annexed by Prussia, but with the reactionary German states opposed to the unification process. Especially, this means Austria. The problem is that Austria should be in utter chaos by this point so alone they could not adequately strike at Prussia; still, I've got an event chain in mind that in the event of a democratic or voluntary unification has Austria ask unaffected Russia for help, and should the Czar accede to an intervention--as he did in the liberal-national Hungarian revolution for ideological reasons, and German democratic unity would be much, much more despicable to him--war is declared by both powers upon the nascent Germany. Since France should be at this point revolutionary and not reactionary itself, it should have the choice to remain neutral (action_a, naturally), defend the German revolution with an alliance (deeply unpopular amongst French), or attack Germany too (deeply unpopular amongst liberals). A successful defense would mean an early Germany; an Austro-Russian victory would mean the disintegration of Germany and a return to status quo for the German Federation and a sleeping of the later German events. Additionally, a democratic Germany should get the FRoG flag, which is already included in the graphics as the SGF flag. That's just cosmetic, though.

3) The "nationalism" revolt risk caused by unification is contradictory and should be lessened as much as possible. A stopgap solution is an event to lower militancy for all North and South Germans by -10. This will at least avoid the consequences of the small states' mismanagement of their population, though of course it won't void nationalism entirely.

4) Not strictly relevant, but why does the SGF become an Austrian satellite, anyway? Should they not be a Prussian satellite?
 

Darkrenown

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Ideologue: I do see your points, but at the moment all I'm trying to do if lower unification BB and add some relations events depending on government type. Maybe a -RR event too, but that might wipe out the effects of the liberial revolution. Not only is that the limit of my design goals, I'm also not that good at modding. Aside from some pop-needs tweaking a few days ago this is my first attempt. When I had this idea I really hoped someone else would do the modding, but my idea was pretty much ignored so I decided to try it myself.

Rafiki: Thanks, I'll drop you a mail when I'm done.
 

unmerged(11874)

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Is cool. Heh, I already did 30 or so Austrian 1848 events (with another 5 or 6 for France and the Papal States/Roman Republic) which I'm going to thoroughly test tonight, so tweaking or reformulating the Germany 1848 events was something I was going to do anyway.

I wonder if VIP still needs anything for Austria?
 

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Argh! Setback! While testing the relations events, out of reflex I saved before quiting thus over-writing my current Russia game :(
 

Darkrenown

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Ok, things are going fairly well. At the moment Austria and France have events where they take large relations hits to or can DoW(A/B) Germany when CE or PU fires if they have the opposite government type (democratic vs mon + con mon) OR small relations hit or war if they have the same government type.

Russia, Ottomans and UK have events for medium relations raise or large relations raise + alliance if they have the same goverenment type OR med relations hit or war if they have the opposite government type.

And I found I had a backup save of the game I saved over :)

I was about to start on events for the three hurrahs, but I wonder what's needed. You'll just have been at war with France, so they dont need a relations hit event. I'm not too sure about how Austria felt about the historic unification...Should UK and Russia be upset and Italy pleased?
 

Memnon

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Darkrenown said:
I'm not too sure about how Austria felt about the historic unification...Should UK and Russia be upset and Italy pleased?
Darkrenown: sounds like you're doing great so far :) . In regards to your question, see my post earlier. I quote Taylor describing the historical moods of the countries to the real Unification. I know it might not be the best answer to just use how it really went, but it might give you a place to start.

In reality, this is why I said above that the relations hit for the other great powers int he historical unification should depend on whether Napoleon III still controls the govt of France. The other powers hated him, and liked that he was gone. But if Bismarck had overturned a popular government--or recognized the Commune--they would probably have been upset.

Again, I have no experience with mods, so if you can't do it or if it's too complicated to pull off, sorry for the trouble, but I hope this helps.
 

Darkrenown

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So pretty much the same events for the CE, but swap Ottomans for Italy, then? I don't think I'll need a French event either, the war should give the needed relations hit.

I could probably make an event that checks on Nappy and changes the BB level, but it's proably be easier to just give the countries I've mentioned events that compare their governments to that of French. If they match they are upset, if not they are happy.
 

Derek Pullem

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Going to hijack this thread a little to get feedback on an Idea.

If the BB per province for uncivilised and claimed provinces was set to 1/3 per province and you got BB for each uncivilised province, would this be a good idea.

Effects - German and Italian BB would still be there but at around +15-20 for Germany and +5-10 for Italy

Russia and others can't do a two step annexation and will pick up +10-15 BB for Persia for example.

Is this better or worse than no BB via inherit plus a BB increase?