Say a word about poor Italy

[Oporto]

Just add a mini province within Rome called "Vatican City"

And see it developed to 50 later - a Rome within Rome!

 

[dm99]

Apart from Fascism's time [what we would call "Ventennio", so 1922-1943] the idea/notion of "Italy is the only heir of the Roman Empire, we must restore it" [etc.] wasn't present in the Italian culture if not sporadically in a few men.

e.g.
Petrarch dreamed that Africa [read the "novel" Africa from Petrarch himself] would be rediscovered in the future and that, having re-emerged from the darkness, it would give rise to a new Renaissance*. Well, the myth of ancient Rome re-emerges precisely in the fascist propaganda, which is proposed as a re-edition of the old Roman glories.

Similarly, during the Fascism time in Italy, we had even films that would "show" Mussolini as the new Sciopio the African.



* On this there's a huge difference between how in-game the Renaissance was presented and how it developed in real life, 1444 Renaissance was already a big part of many cities [see Naples, Florence, Urbino, Venice] since it was a continuation of the Italian Umanism [and it's hard to find when one ends and the other start]

Thank you. The fact that reality and the game exist in different planes, I realized a very long time ago. There is nothing surprising here. Surprising is the desire of some individuals under the sauce of historicity to bring into the game generally meaningless ideas, which, as it turns out, also smell bad. In short, No to the Rebirth of Rome

 

[dm99]

Just add a mini province within Rome called "Vatican City"

I like the idea that came up here more, it was proposed to drive the Pope into a virtual Vatican, and enable diplomacy through the Papal Guria interface.

 

[RMS Oceanic]

It's a problem for the AI though. It's very rare to see AI Italy since even if they do well and get most of the territory required, as soon as they take Rome they'll just hand it straight back to the Pope. If they were able to form Italy without Rome then it would be much more common to see AI Italy actually form.

Tangential but I'm reminded of AI Thuringia as well. Many times I see them completely annex Saxony in their independence war, but then they never get to be the new Saxony because Austria makes them return a province before they can finish coring it.

 

[Pandrea]

The seriousness of Mussolini and Fascism's intention to "restore the Roman Empire" should also be greatly reduced.

No one has ever really thought of renaming the kingdom of Italy to "Roman Empire" or "Roman Republic," nor of renouncing Italian in favor of Latin, nor of giving Mussolini or Victor Emmanuel III the title of Caesar or Augustus. And certainly not even the most ambitious fascists thought they would conquer France, Spain, the Balkans....

The Roman era served Italian nationalism as a "reservoir" of mythologies, symbols and references to which it could draw on in order to strengthen the idea of power OF ITALY, but without renouncing Italian identity in favor of Roman identity. In the same way that Hitler drew on the medieval Holy Roman Empire without wanting to be crowned or French nationalism exalted Vercingetorix without wanting to speak Celtic.

It was all more about "our ancestors were glorious, so we are too" than "we are our ancestors"

 

[nukemind2012]

A word about poor Italy.

 

[jdavis86]

Well, he did. But, it seems that the great powers grew tired of the situation or were unable to intervene, so Pope had no other option but accept the new situation. Some even saw it as beneficial. And the influence of religious authority had already waned gteatly by that time.

Not to mention that Pope was already forced to accept the situation when the bishops of the some countries were coaxed to pay tribute to the King, not Rome, many times over. Even in seemingly zealous Spain.

Right, Franco-Prussian war started and Nap III bailed on the Pope.

 

[dm99]

And see it developed to 50 later - a Rome within Rome!

Just to get attention, sorry. Thanks to you, we have attracted the attention of developers, on the one hand, it pleases, on the other hand, it scares me to shiver. Because developers can come in and redo everything too much. I wish the good things were left.

I would like to work out some kind of coordinated position, because if everyone pulls in their own direction, then we will get the dictatorship of the developers, and if we act together, then perhaps we will achieve something.

Summing up the discussion, I have a few suggestions:

1. The mission tree is tailored for one task and is completely uninteresting to the rest. Let's say we have a faction "Restore glory to Rome", a faction "Isolation is our everything" and a faction "Italy must be a commercial and maritime hegemon". It seems to me that there should be three branches of missions, each of which will suit each faction.

Return the glory to Rome must be made shorter, but no less intense. It's just to claim to capture large chunks, not areas, but whole regions at once. Well, like captured France, get a claim on Spain.

Our isolation is all about the development of the country and permanent bonuses. Like collected all of Italy, got a bonus. Plugged all the passages in the Alps with Forts, get a bonus to defensive. Never got out of the region - get a bonus.

Trading hegemon is about building trading companies. Claims are needed for key areas in each region such as Ragusa, Tunisia, Alexandria, Syria, possibly Constantinople and the Crimea. Then the Gulf of Aden and India. And do not care that it has no analogues in history. If history had turned out differently, perhaps they would have. And do not need pseudo-historical missions such as Make an alliance with Ethiopia, get a claim on Alexandria. Ethiopia, if it still exists, is on the other side of Egypt. No common interests, so it turns out I made an alliance, got a claim, broke the alliance.

2. Rome and the Pope. I support the idea that Rome should be excluded from the formation of Italy, since the AI can't handle it, and we don't care. In the mission tree, you can put the return of Rome as the first item.

I also support the idea that after the loss of Rome, the Pope needs to be driven into the virtual Vatican, that is, to get the opportunity to diplomacy with the Pope through the Papal Guria interface. This should or may be accompanied by a special quest "Make the Pope accept his position".

3. Everyone who thinks that it is worth adding more can always express their suggestions.

4. Since this promises us changes, we would like to keep the good that is now.

For example, I absolutely would not want the changes to affect those countries that inhabit the Italian region at the beginning of the game. Once upon a time, the developers did a very good job on them. The missions are really interesting, doable and correspond to the development. Usually I go through almost all of them before the formation of Italy. Their ideas are quite reasonable and balanced.

I would very much not like a change in the National Ideas of Italy. Especially in such key moments as +20 trade power, +50 relationship improvement, +15 infantry, +33 manpower, -25 core creation and +20% defense. In short, it works, it's better not to touch it. One can of course add something about the Trading Companies at the expense of stability, prestige or galleys.

5. I'm sure I forgot something, but you can always add.

And one moment. I am not a frequent visitor to the forum, it will soon be time to leave it again and I would like someone to take the trouble to lobby the collected ideas in front of the developers.

 

[FishieFan]

The seriousness of Mussolini and Fascism's intention to "restore the Roman Empire" should also be greatly reduced.

No one has ever really thought of renaming the kingdom of Italy to "Roman Empire" or "Roman Republic," nor of renouncing Italian in favor of Latin,

Every nationalist wishes to purge their language of loan words, ataturk did this with turkish, the french tried to end americanisms, germans tried to remove french words, not to mention with how italian is just modern latin

nor of giving Mussolini or Victor Emmanuel III the title of Caesar or Augustus.

"his august majesty" is basically the same as "his imperial majesty"

And certainly not even the most ambitious fascists thought they would conquer France, Spain, the Balkans....

They didnt think theyd conquer the balkans they just declared protectorates over the littoral which was heavily italian before moving inland, along with trying to conquer greece and north Africa like the romans had

The Roman era served Italian nationalism as a "reservoir" of mythologies, symbols and references to which it could draw on in order to strengthen the idea of power OF ITALY, but without renouncing Italian identity in favor of Roman identity. In the same way that Hitler drew on the medieval Holy Roman Empire without wanting to be crowned or French nationalism exalted Vercingetorix without wanting to speak Celtic.

French Republican Nationalists exalted Vercingetorix for his stand against the Romans as a rejection of the adoration of Rome and the Capetian Monarchy by French Conservatives

It was all more about "our ancestors were glorious, so we are too" than "we are our ancestors"

Its both with how many would try to claim continuity with the ancient romans