Say a word about poor Italy

[dm99]

In the new addition, dev want to affect many, but not Italy. Although a more stupid mission tree than Italy still needs to be looked for. Most of the missions in EU4 are designed to turn the country on its historical path. But not for Italy. A very significant part of it is aimed at restoring the Roman Empire, which the Italians never really did (because they were realists and did not play EU4 ).

For good, to be the first country in the world, Italy needs a completely different path. Why do we need these meaningless territories in Europe. Italy is a very rich country in development, all that is needed is to direct world trade to its two end nodes. The expansion that Italy really needs is Ragusa, Tunis, Constantinople, Alexandria, Aleppo, Gulf of Aden (key) and further India, Indonesia, China. It is very good to squeeze most of the trade in Seville from Spain. What is needed is not territories, but bunch of trading companies in key provinces.

But what does the mission tree offer? Capture a strip of sand in Tripolitania in order to get a claim on Alexandria. Or a bunch of provinces in Alexandria to claim Syria. And for some reason, it is necessary to fight with Austria, to climb into Europe, although it is easier to hide behind the Alps, set up forts so that no one will pass and secure all world trade for self. In my humble experience, by the middle of absolutism, you can achieve an income of 900 coins per month without making a single step beyond the Alps.

And another specificity of the missions is that they do not mainly give useful bonuses, but mostly constant claims on the territory, which are not particularly needed.

By the way, this is exactly the way Italy tried to do in reality, when also wanted to have its own colonies. But no, someone wanted to revive Rome and loaded with this stuff the whole Italian mission tree. And what about those who do not want it. That's how much I play and there weren't fewer completed missions than for Italy.

 

[Oporto]

What is really needed for Italy is an option to form it without Rome, and getting it later.

 

[cuendillar]

I like the concept, a lot. What about specifically two main branches, "Boost Venice" and "Boost Genoa" that works largely independently? Typical rewards could be claims on CoTs in downstream coastal nodes (so not eg Champagne or Wien), bonus TP and an upgrade of owned CoTs in the recently conquered node.

A natural third branch would be to develop the peninsula and maintain prosperity in it by fortifying the alps and securing naval dominance in the Mediterranean.

 

[dm99]

What is really needed for Italy is a option to form it without Rome, and getting it later.

It's not a problem at all. We collect the north of Italy to the maximum and only when conditions allow, we capture Rome, make a core and immediately announce the formation.

The problem is different, where to put the Pope . The best thing is if he still has Avignon. If not, you have to leave one of the provinces in Italy, but you have to try hard with relations there.

 

[Oporto]

It's not a problem at all. We collect the north of Italy to the maximum and only when conditions allow, we capture Rome, make a core and immediately announce the formation.

The problem is different, where to put the Pope . The best thing is if he still has Avignon. If not, you have to leave one of the provinces in Italy, but you have to try hard with relations there.

Personally, I would prefer to see Northern Italy already unified under the flag of Italy, but with a capital in Torino/Florence/whatever of the tag that unifies it. And only then you "deal" with the Pope in any matter you see fit. Just some historical basis for a unification path.
And the Pope does need to remain somehow - maybe as a march of Italy on some province or "backstage" so to speak, since we cannot have the proper Vatican.
But claiming the Rome is needed, thus you unlock the mission path to take the mantle of a successor to the Empire.

 

[dm99]

I like the concept, a lot. What about specifically two main branches, "Boost Venice" and "Boost Genoa" that works largely independently? Typical rewards could be claims on CoTs in downstream coastal nodes (so not eg Champagne or Wien), bonus TP and an upgrade of owned CoTs in the recently conquered node.

A natural third branch would be to develop the peninsula and maintain prosperity in it by fortifying the alps and securing naval dominance in the Mediterranean.

Yes, something like this. By the way, about Champagne and Wien, I forgot to mention that since CoTs are impossible there, of course, you don’t really need to capture anything there, with the mass of the trading power of the Italian provinces, it pushes upstream so much that you can pull from it without straining. But the merchant needs to be planted there.

By the way, when you collect a critical mass of trading power in a node, some of it push upstream, making it easier to capture the next node. And it must be time to stop. Champagne from this category, since having captured Champagne, you will also want Bordeaux, and there the new world is close. But this goes against the basic concept.

And there may be a whole branch for those who want to restore the Roman Empire, just make it shorter. Took over France, get the claim on the whole of Spain and so on.

 

[dm99]

Personally, I would prefer to see Northern Italy already unified under the flag of Italy, but with a capital in Torino/Florence/whatever of the tag that unifies it. And only then you "deal" with the Pope in any matter you see fit. Just some historical basis for a unification path.
And the Pope does need to remain somehow - maybe as a march of Italy on some province or "backstage" so to speak, since we cannot have the proper Vatican.
But claiming the Rome is needed, thus you unlock the mission path to take the mantle of a successor to the Empire.

You may be right, I never thought about it. For me, Italy is from the Alps to Sicily and Islands. And no Pope. But it so happened historically that I play for Catholics, and therefore the Pope as a state is needed.

But in general, the formation has never been a problem, but the mission tree really infuriates. Last time I had to create a special subject to which I fed all these meaningless territories, such as 10 provinces of the sands.

 

[Oporto]

You may be right, I never thought about it. For me, Italy is from the Alps to Sicily and Islands. And no Pope. But it so happened historically that I play for Catholics, and therefore the Pope as a state is needed.

But in general, the formation has never been a problem, but the mission tree really infuriates. Last time I had to create a special subject to which I fed all these meaningless territories, such as 10 provinces of the sands.

Right, mission tree is definitely in a need of improvement.
Also, how about having The Knights Hospitallier in Malta on a leash?

 

[dm99]

Right, mission tree is definitely in a need of improvement.
Also, how about having The Knights Hospitallier in Malta on a leash?

By the way, they were exactly the vassal who ate his fill of sand. But I did not give them Malta. We became friends with them when they were still living in Rhodes. What for them Malta if they have Jerusalem.

This is now, when I play for Spain, they were forced out of Rhodes and I had to give them Malta. Well, according to old memory, I took it into my hands. Since Tunisia tortured me with their raids, here is my answer to them .

 

[Cuke]

the formation has never been a problem, but the mission tree really infuriates.

My pet peeve is in the Bugs forum at the moment. I have fed my Knights-on-a-Leash their mission tree permaclaims in Ottoman lands, so I ended up with the same "locked behind Austria" issue. In my case, Austria became Germany in 1700s and satisfied the "Austria doesn't exist" condition. What a miracle.

 

[Oporto]

By the way, they were exactly the vassal who ate his fill of sand. But I did not give them Malta. We became friends with them when they were still living in Rhodes. What for them Malta if they have Jerusalem.

This is now, when I play for Spain, they were forced out of Rhodes and I had to give them Malta. Well, according to old memory, I took it into my hands. Since Tunisia tortured me with their raids, here is my answer to them .

Then it would be good if you can propose to them to become a march or restore them if you or somebody else drove them from both Rhodes and Malta.

Malta is kinda distanced from the other Italian parts both geographically and culturally (and Italy never owned it in the first place), and giving it to the Knights gives all the more reason to counter barbary corsairs.

 

[dm99]

Then it would be good if you can propose to them to become a march or restore them if you or somebody else drove them from both Rhodes and Malta.

Malta is kinda distanced from the other Italian parts both geographically and culturally (and Italy never owned it in the first place), and giving it to the Knights gives all the more reason to counter barbary corsairs.

March of course. Regarding Malta, since Genoa is usually the main node, the main rule is no one but me. In addition, they (knights) feel great in the sands of Tripolitania. And when they get access to the Red Sea ... Their only drawback is a terrible hoarding, for some reason they prefer to save money, but not spend it. And they love to demolish the forts that I built for them.

 

[Kapi96]

It's not a problem at all. We collect the north of Italy to the maximum and only when conditions allow, we capture Rome, make a core and immediately announce the formation.

The problem is different, where to put the Pope . The best thing is if he still has Avignon. If not, you have to leave one of the provinces in Italy, but you have to try hard with relations there.

It's a problem for the AI though. It's very rare to see AI Italy since even if they do well and get most of the territory required, as soon as they take Rome they'll just hand it straight back to the Pope. If they were able to form Italy without Rome then it would be much more common to see AI Italy actually form.

 

[dm99]

It's a problem for the AI though. It's very rare to see AI Italy since even if they do well and get most of the territory required, as soon as they take Rome they'll just hand it straight back to the Pope. If they were able to form Italy without Rome then it would be much more common to see AI Italy actually form.

Absolutely agree. My problem is that I tend to forget how hard it is for AI.

 

[heliostellar]

What is really needed for Italy is an option to form it without Rome, and getting it later.

IMHO, the maluses for conquering Rome or vassalizing is should be diminished or eliminated all together after the Reformation passes through, and especially after there is religious peace in the HRE.

 

[FishieFan]

IMHO, the maluses for conquering Rome or vassalizing is should be diminished or eliminated all together after the Reformation passes through, and especially after there is religious peace in the HRE.

Why?

 

[Lykus Cerebros]

Didn't the pope lock himself in the vatican and still denounced / excommunicated the Italian king after they took Rome in 1870?

 

[Oporto]

Didn't the pope lock himself in the vatican and still denounced / excommunicated the Italian king after they took Rome in 1870?

Well, he did. But, it seems that the great powers grew tired of the situation or were unable to intervene, so Pope had no other option but accept the new situation. Some even saw it as beneficial. And the influence of religious authority had already waned gteatly by that time.

Not to mention that Pope was already forced to accept the situation when the bishops of the some countries were coaxed to pay tribute to the King, not Rome, many times over. Even in seemingly zealous Spain.

 

[Lykus Cerebros]

Well, he did. But, it seems that the great powers grew tired of the situation or were unable to intervene, so Pope had no other option but accept the new situation. Some even saw it as beneficial. And the influence of religious authority had already waned gteatly by that time.

Not to mention that Pope was already forced to accept the situation when the bishops of the some countries were coaxed to pay tribute to the King, not Rome, many times over. Even in seemingly zealous Spain.

I mean sure. Just wanted to point put that even in a very modern age the pope ruling in Rome still held significant sway in the Catholic circles. Hell France stationed thousands of soldiers in Rome to prevent the taking by Italy in the first place.

 

[TolHydra]

While I agree in spirit, I am confused by the desire to get trade towards a country as stupidly rich as Italy is, as you said.

There aren't many, for lack of a better word, "tactile" ways to interact with this game. I mean if we had anything else other than ""prestige"" to simulate culture, Italy would probably have the best mission tree to dominate it. But unfortunately in eu4 you either map paint or you focus on getting more money. So if you don't do the first, and you are set for the rest of the game for the second, what else is there to pursue?

A pre-eminent Italian power trying to establish some form of dominance will inevitably parallel Rome. I'm all for it being an alternate Romaboo tree.